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^.HEARING 

SENATE RULES COMMITTEE 

STATE OF CALIFORNIA p,^^, „,^^,^^ ^ 

DOCUMENTS DEPT. 

MAR - 8 19S9 

SAN FRANCISCO 
PUBLIC LIBRARY 




STATE CAPITOL 

ROOM 113 

SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA 

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 24 1999 
1:33 PM. 



366-R 



SENATE RULES COMMITTEE 
STATE OF CALIFORNIA 



HEARING 



STATE CAPITOL 

ROOM 113 

SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA 



WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 24, 1999 
1:33 P.M. 



Reported by: 



Evelyn J. Mizak 
Shorthand Reporter 



3 1223 03273 6531 



11 

APPEARANCES 

MEMBERS PRESENT 

SENATOR JOHN BURTON, Chair 

SENATOR JOHN LEWIS, Vice Chair 

SENATOR JOE BACA 

SENATOR TERESA HUGHES 

SENATOR WILLIAM KNIGHT 

STAFF PRESENT 

GREG SCHMIDT, Executive Officer 

PAT WEBB, Committee Secretary 

NETTIE SABELHAUS, Consultant on Governor's Appointments 

WADE TEASDALE, Consultant to SENATOR LEWIS 

FELICE TANENBAUM, Consultant to SENATOR HUGHES 

ANDY PUGNO, Consultant to SENATOR KNIGHT 

MANNY HERNANDEZ, Consultant to SENATOR BACA 

ALSO PRESENT 

B. TIMOTHY GAGE, Director of Finance 

STEPHEN J. SMITH, Director 
Department of Industrial Relations 

SENATOR BETTY KARNETTE 

MARTIN W. MORGENSTERN, Director 
Personnel Administration Department 

SENATOR DON PERATA 



4 49383 SFPL: ECONO JRS 
75 SFPL 06/06/03 13 



Ill 
INDEX 

Page 
Proceedings 1 

Governor's Appointees: 

B. TIMOTHY GAGE, Director of Finance 1 

Background and Experience 1 

Questions by SENATOR BACA re: 

State' s Fiscal Picture 1 

Questions by SENATOR HUGHES re: 

Projections in May Revision 2 

Questions by SENATOR LEWIS re: 

Ranking Governor' s Priorities 3 

State Reserve and Debt Service 3 

Agreement to Provide Local Governments 

With Money for Local Flood Subvention 

Pro j ects 5 

Motion to Confirm 6 

Committee Action 7 

STEPHEN J. SMITH, Director 

Department of Industrial Relations 7 

Background and Experience 7 

Questions by SENATOR LEWIS re: 

Restoration of 8-hour Day 9 

Type of Flexibility Sought 9 

Discussion of Options 10 

Ergonomic Regulations 11 



IV 



Questions by CHAIRMAN BURTON re: 

Need to Speed up Workers' Comp. 

Process 12 

Possibility of Splitting Areas of 

Administration and Policy 12 

Questions by SENATOR BACA re: 

Increasing Benefits for Injured 

Workers 14 

Plans to Beef up Area of Labor 

Standards Enforcement 14 

Motion to Confirm 15 

Statement of Support by 

SENATOR BETTY KARNETTE 15 

Committee Action 16 

MARTIN W. MORGENSTERN, Director 

Department of Personnel Administration 16 

Introduction and Support by 

SENATOR DON PERATA 16 

Background and Experience 17 

Questions by CHAIRMAN BURTON re: 

Status of Negotiations with 

Bargaining Units 18 

Last-Minute MOUs at End of 

Legislative Sessions 19 

Questions by SENATOR LEWIS re: 

Authority in Case of Public 

Employees' Strike 20 

Position on Granting Collective 

Bargaining Rights to Supervisorial 

Employees 21 



Questions by SENATOR BACA re: 

Bridging Differences between 

DPA and SPB 22 

Questions by SENATOR KNIGHT re: 

Authority to Go to Court to Force 
Employees Back to Work in Case of 
Strike 23 

Past Involvement in Strikes 23 

Motion to Confirm 24 

Committee Action 25 

Termination of Proceedings 25 

Certificate of Reporter 26 

Statement of MARTIN W. MORGENSTERN 27 



P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 
— ooOoo — 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: The first one is the Director 
of Finance, Tim Gage. 

MR. GAGE: Mr. Chairman and Members, I'd be happy 
to answer any questions you might have. 

I'd like to make just a real quick comment 
first. It's a privilege for me to be asked by the Governor to 
serve him. I look forward to working with the Legislature. 
It's really my home. It's where I grew up, and I'm looking 
forward to putting together a budget that's responsible 
fiscally, addresses the needs of California, and hopefully comes 
in on time. 

Lastly, I'd just like to make one comment. I've 
worked with the staff of the Department of Finance for many 
years. I know many of them well and have had a great deal of 
respect for them. But it wasn't really until the transition 
that I had the opportunity to work more closely with some of 
them, and I have to say that I was really just struck by what a 
dedicated, responsible, hard-working staff they are. Frankly, 
it's really a privilege for me to be able to work with them. 

I'd be happy to answer any questions, 

SENATOR BACA: I have a question. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. 

Tim, how is the state's fiscal picture shaping 
up? In, other words the state has been going to sufficient 
revenue for its budget obligation. Where are we, and what is 



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our status? Can you basically let us know. 

MR. GAGE: Since the budget was released, and you 
know, of course, that when the budget was released, we did have 
to acknowledge what we thought was a fairly significant slowing 
in the state's rate of growth in terms of the economy. 

It ' s apparent that more recent economic activity 
is not quite as grim, but most commentators and forecasters at 
this point believe that there will be some moderating of 
economic growth into 1999 and potentially into 2000. We're, of 
course, looking towards the May Revision, at which point in time 
we'll update our forecasts of the economy and our estimates of 
revenues. And we're hopeful that we will have additional 
resources at that point in time. 

SENATOR BACA: So the outlook at this point looks 
positive at this point? 

MR. GAGE: I'd say that it is more positive than 
it was when we put the numbers together in November and 
December . 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Hughes. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Could you tell us what do you 
see in the projections for the Governor's revision? 

MR. GAGE: At this point we don't have any 
specifics. To date, revenues through January are up from the 
budget forecast by about $100 million. That's mostly in the 
area of personal income tax, and it's mostly attributable to 
final payments for the fourth quarter, which come in January 
15th. And that portends well for the May Revision. 



But until we actually get the final personal 
income receipts, personal income tax receipts April 15th, we 
won't really know what those numbers look like. 

SENATOR HUGHES: How large a suitcase did the 
Governor take to bring back the money? Forget that. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Lewis. 

SENATOR LEWIS: The Governor has pretty much said 
that his top priorities are going to be increasing of state 
reserve, public education, public employee pay raises. 

Just among those three, how would you rank those 
this terms of priorities? 

MR. GAGE: I'll use the comment that my Chief 
Deputy, Betty Yee, offered with the Senate Budget Committee, 
which was all of the above. 

The Governor actually has simply stated that 
those three will have the highest claim on any additional 
revenues that we get at the time of the May Revision. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Maybe I'll be luckier with the 
next question. 

With an eye towards fiscal prudence in your 
professional opinion, how large should the state reserve be? 
And also, what percentage of the General Fund do you think 
should be capped in terms of debt service for bonds? 

MR. GAGE: With respect to the size of the 
reserve, the Governor has indicated his desire to get to a two 
percent reserve. Whether or not that'll be possible at the time 
of the May Revision, we don't know at this point because, as I 
said, he has identified some other competing priorities. 



And in fact, that two percent reserve, which is 
about 1.1 or 1.2 billion dollars, was the figure that we 
actually started with when we put the budget together in 
November and December. That was the target that was our 
starting point. And then it was basically when we got to a 
point where we realized that we weren't going to have sufficient 
resources to have a reserve at that level that we scaled back 
from there. But that is his goal. 

With respect to debt service, the Treasurer and I 
had some very interesting conversations with the bond rating 
agencies around that very question. I think it's fair to say 
that their sense, and my sense as well, is not that there is a 
particular number per se, but that rather what's really 
important for the Governor and the Legislature to consider in 
terms of debt service is, what are the competing demands? What 
are the things that they would like to fund on an ongoing basis 
from the budget that compete for dollars that would be used for 
debt service? 

It's really a matter of looking at those kinds of 
trade-offs that I think are really important. So, I think the 
Legislature has spoken generally on the issue and identified a 
six percent level. I think it's fair to say that the rating 
agencies are generally comfortable with that. What they have 
said is that it depends really on how other facets of the 
state's fiscal situation are managed, and what the prospects are 
for the economy. 

But from my perspective, it's really 
fundamentally about what kinds of trade-offs, what kind of 



competing demands we're looking at. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Lastly, in the last budget year 
there was an agreement with local governments and the state to 
provide $40 million in local flood subvention projects. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: In which Orange County did 
quite well, as I recall. 

SENATOR LEWIS: And part of the agreement was 
that there would be three additional years of 44 million, and 
yet I believe that was stricken from the budget. 

What's happening there? What are your thoughts? 

MR. GAGE: Yes, there was basically a four-year 
agreement that was reached between the prior administration and 
Legislature last year to provide that funding. And of the 
things, as you know, the Governor had to make decisions with 
respect to, in putting this budget together, was to defer or 
delay payment on some of those kinds of costs. 

Another example, for instance, is the issue of 
the $160 million that's provided for buy-down of developer fees 
for low and moderate income housing. What we've proposed in the 
budget is basically to put those payments in the years in which 
those dollars will actually be spent. 

The flood control subvention is a similar issue, 
where in effect the Governor has said, compared to other 
priorities, we needed to make a decision to defer at this point 
in time. Obviously, once we get the May Revision, we'll be in a 
position to look at those various deferrals and make a decision 
as to whether or not it's possible to make any restorations. 

SENATOR LEWIS: At least in terms of 



prioritization, flood control was somewhere behind education, 
state employee pay raises? 

MR. GAGE: I think it's fair to say the 
Governor's view would be that flood control is behind 
education. As to where it ranks past that, I don't really have 
any wisdom to offer you at this point. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Any other questions? 

I wonder if you could identify — 
[ Laughter . ] 

MR. GAGE: I knew I should have cleaned out my 
office. 

[ Laughter . ] 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Leave it to Beaver. 
[Laughter. ] 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Anyway, as you can see, he was 
smiling, as you well said, in anticipation of confirmation to 
this position. 

I don't know of anyone since I've been around who 
really is well suited for this as you because of your 
relationship with the Legislature. 

MR. GAGE: Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Working on budget committees. 

Why don't you introduce your family. 

MR. GAGE: Yes, I'd like to, in the third row 
back there is my daughter, Megan, and my wife Mary Gill. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Why don't those of you in 
support just raise your hands. Those of you in opposition. 

Moved by Senator Hughes. Call the roll. 



SECRETARY WEBB: Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Baca Aye. Senator Hughes. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Hughes Aye. Senator Knight. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Knight Aye. Senator Lewis. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Lewis Aye. Senator Burton. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Burton Aye. Five to zero. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Congratulations, Tim. 

MR. GAGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and 



Members . 



CHAIRMAN BURTON: We're going to go to Stephen 
Smith, Director of Industrial Relations. 

MR. SMITH: As my opening statement, I'd just 
like to say that Tim is a damn good looking fourth grader. 

Actually, let me, before answering whatever 
questions you have, let me be very brief this morning and just 
thank you for your time. 

With me, what you see is what you get. I've been 
around, advocating for working men and women for about 20 years 
mostly in this town. 

Really, though, my job is to implement the 
Governor's program. So, let me just outline for you very 
briefly how I see that program. 

His first priority he said at the State of the 



8 

State is to reinstitute overtime after eight hours in the work 
day. Pretty simple, my job is work with what I assume will be a 
soon recreated IWC, the Legislature, the experts, and all the 
various constituency groups to get that done as soon as 
possible. 

Secondly, the former administration pursued a 
number of changes in how to determine the prevailing wage. This 
administration has no interest in pursuing those changes any 
longer, and in fact, is quite committed to using the modal rate 
the traditional way methodology for determining the prevailing 
wage. 

Third, Governor Davis is quite committed to 
enforcing the law. And that enforcement includes the workers' 
compensation laws, the labor laws, the health and safety laws. 
We strongly believe that increasing compliance with those laws 
really involves two things: communication to increase voluntary 
compliance; and then enforcement if that compliance isn't 
forthcoming. Those are really the Governor's top three 
priorities in terms of the Department of Industrial Relations. 

I think Tim was more than eloquent on what his 
overall top three priorities are. And I think really what it 
amounts to is education, education and education. 

So, that's really his program. My job's to 
implement it, and I'm more than happy to answer whatever 
questions you have. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Lewis. 

SENATOR LEWIS: I think you may have already 
answered my question. Going back to the Governor's State of the 



9 

State address, where he said that the Industrial Welfare 
Commission would restore the 8-hour overtime. 

Do I take that to mean that it will go back to 
exactly the way it was before? 

MR. SMITH: No, I don't think that is the 
absolute assumption. I think we assume there will be slightly 
greater flexibility in the new regulation and certainly the IWC. 
And the Legislature has bills in front of it to be looking at 
that. 

Exactly what it will be, I couldn't sit here and 
tell you, but certainly there is an openness to looking at that 
and designing it slightly differently. 

But the bottom line of an eight-hour day and 
overtime after that, there's a very strong commitment to. 

SENATOR LEWIS: The last Industrial Welfare 
Commission had extensive hearings, and the changes they brought 
about were to try to bring about some increase in flexibility, 
which you just alluded to. 

What kind of flexibility are you talking about? 
Can you give us an idea of some of the things you might be 
looking at in terms of potential policy differences between 
going back to exactly the old rule? 

MR. SMITH: In specific, no. I will just say 
generally, the new overtime provision instituted was essentially 
an overtime after forty hours; it was essentially per week. 

This administration is interested in going back 
to an eight-hour day, and an overtime being based on a daily 
overtime. 



10 

SENATOR LEWIS: So, you have absolutely no 
concept — 

MR. SMITH: At this point, I'm really not 
prepared to go into detail. Frankly, we expect the IWC to hold 
hearings and take that kind of input and design what will be the 
new eight-hour day. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Just SO I know, is the reason you 
can't go into detail because the various options haven't been 
discussed? 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: He saw what happened to Mary 
Nichols. 

[ Laughter . ] 

SENATOR LEWIS: That was my next question. 

Have you not thought about that various — 

MR. SMITH: It's some combination of Senator 
Burton's comment and also, frankly, I don't want to preclude the 
IWC from doing its job. And that's its job, is to hold hearings 
and to go through that, and make — implement specific 
regulation. 

SENATOR LEWIS: So, it'll definitely be the IWC 
and not via the Legislature? 

MR. SMITH: The Legislature can certainly do it, 
and there are those advocates who think that, in fact, the 
Legislature ought to pass the law, and then have the IWC 
implement the regulations. 

SENATOR LEWIS: But in terms of timing, do you 
think the Governor will be acting prior to the Legislature — 

MR. SMITH: I think the Governor will be acting 



11 

prior to re-institute the IWC, but in fact, the regulatory 
process is not, you know, isn't a one or two day process. So, 
how that timing works relative to each other, it probably could 
end up being pretty synonymous. 

SENATOR LEWIS: One last question. What is the 
change relative to anything dealing with ergonomic regulations 
and the court cases? 

MR. SMITH: Currently, the Standards Board passed 
ergonomic standards based on this Legislature's action. Those 
standards have been taken to court from both the trucking 
industry and the AFL-CIO. There's a trial court decision; it is 
now on appeal. 

I guess the two primary issues are, it takes two 
incidents of perceived ergonomic problems to implement, and the 
exemption for businesses with nine or fewer employees. 

My attitude is at this point, the courts have to 
do their duty, and at that point, we will have either a standard 
to implement, or they'll send it back to the Standards Board for 
some retooling, I would assume. So, we're a bit in limbo right 
now until the Appeals Court acts. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Do you think there's a chance 
that the new administration might go further in terms of 
developing tougher standards or regulations? 

MR. SMITH: I have not discussed that with the 
Governor. We all should be aware that just the other day, the 
federal government is now proposing and is starting rule making 
on their ergonomic standards. Our, of course, law says we have 
to be at least as strong as theirs. So, depending on what they 



12 

come out with at the end of their process, which we're probably 
18 months away from, given that timeline, as a state we will 
probably have to react in some fashion to that. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: I've got a question, then 
Senator Baca. 

One of the complaints we hear from workers and 
actually the insurers, I'm getting to workers' comp, is that it 
takes too long for the workers to gets their money, it takes too 
long for the insurers to know what they got to come up with, so 
I guess what they can hold in reserve. 

Two suggestions were made to me to speed up the 
process. One is to get more either judges or referees, or 
whatever we're calling them today. And the other was to split 
the functions between, I guess, policy and administration, where 
I think when Casey had it, he was everything. I don't know if I 
was right saying policy and administration, but one 
administration and something else, which I think was policy or 
whatever. 

I don't know if you've either had time to think 
about that, whether or not your budget requests to the Governor 
would reflect more judges or referees, but it would seem to me 
if you've got the workers and the insurers saying the same 
thing, you know, it probably makes sense. And one of the 
people I talked to, who is one of the big insurers, said that he 
thought that would be, among a couple other things, but the 
biggest reform would be really to split the responsibility 
between administration, policy, and come up with more judges. 

If that's one of the bigger reforms, it really 



13 

isn't going to adversely impact rates or anything else. It 
would seem to be something to look at. 

I don't know whether you've had a chance to focus 
in on that at all, but if you could briefly comment. 

MR. SMITH: First of all, in the area of the 
judges, we are having a discussion internally about how many 
judges we need. When we increased judges a little while ago, 
the backlog did come down. We started to deal with cases more 
expeditiously. I mean, it's pretty obvious that that's what 
would happen. 

We are considering, you know, if we need more 
judges, how many they are, where they're located, that kind of 
situation. I think that will be forthcoming relatively soon. 

On the second issue, the only thing I've done, 
frankly, I've heard the same thing. It's amazing what kind of a 
learning curve you go through when you jump into this kind of a 
job. There are more suggestions that fly at you. 

One of the things I've asked is that the folks in 
the workers comp come back to me with a list of five or six 
things that would be the best thing we could do administratively 
to speed up the process, or do we need to get beyond that and 
come back here and look for changes. They haven't gotten back 
to me yet. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: I'll try to get you a memo on 
it. I think, although I don't know, that some of the stuff I'm 
talking about, I don't think you need to necessarily come back 
to us. 

Senator Baca. 



14 

SENATOR BACA: As part of a follow-up to that 
question, for several years now there has been no increase in 
benefits for injured workers. Do you expect the Department to 
work with the Legislature in raising the workers' compensation 
level for injured workers? 

MR. SMITH: One more time, the Governor doesn't 
have a position on that; therefore, I don't have a position on 
that. 

I think there is a growing consensus in the 
community that there should be a benefits increase. I think the 
two most significant questions swirling about that discussion 
is, what is the size of the increase, and are there other things 
that ought to be done at the same time. I think both of those 
questions, based on my phone calls, in full swirl. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you, Steve. 

The second question, for several years I have 
been concerned about the lack of enforcement of labor standards 
in the workplace, working conditions, employee protection. 

Do you have any plans to beef up the area of 
labor standard enforcement? 

MR. SMITH: I think it's a two-step process. 
First of all, I've directed staff, and they are now working on 
ways to make the system more efficient, using our existing 
resources to simply get more inspections done, to get a greater 
presence on the workplace, to implement the law as best we can. 

Once we've taken that step and figured out what's 
the maximum we can do with existing resources, we may very well 
have to come back here and ask for more. 



15 

That is not something that • s been discussed yet 
in the administration. And, you know, given our tight fiscal 
resources this year, it's a reality that it probably won't 
happen in the current year, but it's certainly something worth 
looking at and trying to evaluate what we would need. 

SENATOR BACA: Move. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Do you want to introduce your 
family, then we'll have a show of hands? 

MR. SMITH: I left my kids in school, but there's 
my wife, Carol, who thinks this is better because I'm home a 
little more often these days. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Do you want to say something. 
Senator Karnette? 

SENATOR KARNETTE: I just wanted to give my 
unqualified support, because you can see how open he is. That's 
what's important. He's an open person. Everybody's going to be 
able to talk to him. I've known him many years. 

You have my unqualified support and good luck. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Those here in support, give us 
a show of hands. 

You beat Gage. 

[ Laughter . ] 

MR. SMITH: Does that mean I get more money? 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: If he approves it. 
[Laughter. ] 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Anyone want no speak in 
opposition? 

Moved by Senator Baca. Call the roll. 



16 



Senator Lewis. 



SECRETARY WEBB: Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Baca Aye. Senator Hughes. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Hughes Aye. Senator Knight. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Lewis Aye. Senator Burton. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Burton Aye. Four to zero. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Congratulations. 

MR. SMITH: Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Marty. 

Senator Perata. 

SENATOR PERATA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, 



Members . 



I'm here to answer questions on behalf of my 
client, Mr. Morgenstern. It's a pleasure. I don't believe 
Marty needs much introduction, so I'll keep it very brief. 

It's a pleasure. He is a constituent of mine 
who I actually believe voted for me, and since there aren't all 
that many, I wanted to protect my interests and his at this 
meeting. 

We really have reached back into the past in 
order to manage the future. I'm just delighted that he has 
accepted the position, and that he is before you today as a 
possible confirmee. 

I also wanted to point out that this is one thing 



17 

that those of you who wonder, what could an English major do 
with that degree? And since I have an English degree, I'm very 
interested in seeing how he succeeds. 

With no further ado, I'd like to introduce you to 
Marty Morgenstern. 

MR. MORGENSTERN: Thank you. Senator. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: We've got your full statement 
which will be made part of the record. You may just briefly 
comment, then I'm sure there'll be questions. 

MR. MORGENSTERN: Thank you. Senator. 

And thank you, Senator. I voted for you twice, 
for Assembly and Senate. 

SENATOR PERATA: Bless you. This was well worth 
the effort. 

MR. MORGENSTERN: My statement is here. I won't 
go into it in great detail. 

I was, as I said, I've been around a while, and 
was Director of the Governor's Office of Employee Relations, and 
helped write the legislation that created the Department of 
Personnel Administration. That came about after the SEERA Act. 

The main purpose for creating the Department was 
to give the executive arm the ability to negotiate and make 
collective bargaining work for state employees and to otherwise 
administer the personnel system, together with the State 
Personnel Board that has a constitutional responsibility. 
That's basically what I'm here to do and prepared to try to do. 

The Governor has pointed out that state employees 
have not had a pay increase in quite a while, four years now. 



18 

Our first order of business is, we're going to try and get that 
done. 

In that statement I said I hoped to be bringing 
to the Legislature by next month some agreements. In fact, we 
reached two agreements yesterday, so I think we're on our way to 
getting there. After an initial pay increase is in place, I 
hope that we can establish a respectful relationship with 
employees, where we respect them, they have their dignity, and 
they have decent wages and working conditions, and the 
collective bargaining process works, and in return, we have an 
effective, efficient work force that's user-friendly to the 
public. 

That's really how I regard my job, make the 
personnel system work perhaps a little better than it did 
before, improving it. 

We're not interested in pursuing the reforms that 
were on the table in the past. There are some new ideas that 
will probably be floated. If anything, we will try and work 
together with the unions, with the Personnel Board, with the 
Legislature, with the public in improving the public service 
that's delivered by an already very efficient, hard-working and 
excellent work force. 

I have other responsibilities on CalPERS and 
managing the state's deferred compensation plan. I think I'll 
prove able to do that. I'm aware of the problems there, and I'm 
working on them. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: What's the status on how many 
more units are left? 



19 

MR. MORGENSTERN: Fourteen. We have 21 units. 
Four were already in. We brought in a couple more. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: What's the status of 
negotiating with those 14? 

MR. MORGENSTERN: Well, I brought a list 
somewhere. I have had 22 meetings so far. I have a dozen more 
scheduled. Yesterday's developments seemed to have spurred 
things up some, so some people are now asking to come in more 
quickly. Perhaps they see a format for reaching agreement now. 

I would hope that most units will be in soon. Of 
course, collective bargaining, each unit is a legal entity unto 
itself and entitled to negotiate its own agreement. We have to 
deal in good faith with each one. 

So, it's very hard to predict, but I would hope 
that fairly quickly we'll have a critical mass of unions on 
board. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: One of the things that sort of 
bugs me, and I think it bugs the other Members, is, we 
generally — session ends on the 30th of June, and on the 28th 
of June, we get a whole bunch of MOUs that nobody has any idea 
what's in. They don't necessarily go through a legislative 
process. I guess that's because maybe a lot of negotiations 
happen concurrently with the budget or something. 

These, I guess, if somebody was really interested 
in taking a look at them, we'd have a little more time to 
understand them. 

At some point, I'd like you to give some thought 
as to how maybe the MOUs could get up here so we have a 



20 

semi-better idea of what's in them. Then we'll commit that 
we'll pass all the bills before the last hour before deadline. 

It's human nature to defer, and I know there'll 
be a different process now, because I know that the feelings 
between the employees and last administration were not always 
cordial on either side or trustful on either side. 

I think at some point, we ought to have — we, as 
the Legislature — should have an understanding of what it is 
that we are voting for. 

In fact, you don't even have to comment. That's 
just something I'd want you to do. 

Senator Lewis. 

SENATOR LEWIS: With regard to the agreements 
that haven't yet been reached with some of the bargaining units, 
if for some certain number there ends up being an impasse, if 
that were to lead to any kind of a public employees strike, in 
your capacity, what could you and what would you do if there is 
indeed some kind of a major strike? 

MR. MORGENSTERN: Defer to counsel. 
[Laughter.] 

SENATOR PERATA: We're not prepared to answer 
that. 

[ Laughter . ] 

MR. MORGENSTERN: Well, if there were a strike, 
I've been through strikes on both sides of the table. We'll 
continue essential services and operate under the law. 

SENATOR LEWIS: What powers are vested in you? 
What can you do? 



21 

MR. MORGENSTERN: What can I do? 

SENATOR LEWIS: Theorhetically . 

MR. MORGENSTERN: Theoretically, we'd continue 
functioning. We will implement the law. The law is fairly 
specific. I believe the law is fairly specific. I was a member 
of the Public Employment Relations Board and wrote the decision 
that I think still stands on laws. 

If employees go through the impasse procedure, 
and they go through the impasse procedure legally, and what they 
do is legal, then they have a right to withhold services, some 
of them. Those in health and safety, where health and safety 
questions are paramount, we have a right to make sure that they 
come for work. Same thing for people in managerial positions. 
And we'll do that. 

We'll maintain health and safety provisions. We 
won't allow any jeopardy to the public. We'll enforce the laws 
to see to it that everyone's protected, and at the same time, 
we'll respect the right of the public employees to exercise 
their rights under the law. 

SENATOR LEWIS: What's your position on the 
question of granting collective bargaining rights for 
supervisorial employees? 

MR. MORGENSTERN: That wasn't in the original 
law, nor is it standard procedure in the private sector. If 
someone is in fact a true supervisor under the National Labor 
Relations Act, and most any other law I know, then they're 
considered essential to the management team. I've never 
considered going any other way. 



22 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Baca, then Senator 
Knight. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 

Marty, in previous years, the DPA and the State 
Personnel Board were reported to be at odds in a number of civil 
service procedures. 

Will you be taking steps to bridge the 
differences between these two agencies, and how will you be 
doing this? 

MR. MORGENSTERN: Well, I would hope that we 
would be able to resolve any differences. Judge Robey just, I 
hope, resolved some in his recent decision the other day on the 
case on binding arbitration. We were pleased with his decision. 

I think the State Personnel Board clearly has a 
constitutional authority, and we respect that authority. I've 
met with the Executive of the State Personnel Board. I think we 
will have a good working relationship; we do so far. 

The courts have said, as I recall earlier 
decisions, that public agencies like ours should harmonize what 
they do, and that's exactly what we both intend to do, harmonize 
our different authority. We have to exercise the executive 
authority, represent the Governor, represent the executive 
branch of government, basically implement the rules and 
regulations. They have to protect the civil service system as 
the constitution mandates and see that everything is done 
kosher. We expect to work with them in that. 

As far as if you mean the reforms, there have 
been some new reforms suggested by the Hoover Commission. I 



23 

think both of us are interested to sitting down with the 
employee groups and looking at that. The initial reforms, I 
mean at least the Executive Summary, is hardly stuff you can 
disagree with: clarify values and goals; pursue the public 
interest. Yeah, we will pursue the public interest and clarify 
our vision. The nuts and bolts, I think, we'll be able to get 
done. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Knight. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Marty, a follow-up on the strike 
issue. Do you have any authority, and if so, would you exercise 
that authority in going to court is to have the workers back to 
work? 

MR. MORGENSTERN: As I say, some workers, yes. 
If the — I don't remember the terms of art, but basically, if 
the health or safety of the community is threatened, then we do 
have the authority to seek a restraining order, I'm sure, under 
the existing conditions. 

Short of that situation, I wouldn't anticipate 
anywhere we would. To tell you frankly, there were a few 
strikes the last time I was there, and we were able to settle 
them without restraining orders and without any great damage to 
the public weal. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: And then you indicated that you 
were on both sides of them. Have you been involved in a strike? 

MR. MORGENSTERN: Yes, sir. I walked the picket 
line, and I crossed them when I was the management and managed. 
So, I've done both. 



24 

SENATOR LEWIS: What is more fun? 
[Laughter. ] 

MR. MORGENSTERN: I think I'll take the Fifth on 
that. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: He started growing a beard 
after he crossed the picket line so he could look himself in the 
face. 

Senator Hughes. 

SENATOR HUGHES: I'd like to move his 
nomination. I'm sure there's nobody here to speak against him. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Do you have anybody here to 
introduce? 

MR. MORGENSTERN: None of my ex-wives could make 
it. 

[ Laughter . ] 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Could we have a show of hands 
in support? Anybody to speak in opposition. 

SENATOR BACA: He said his ex-wives couldn't make 
it. 

[ Laughter . ] 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Call the roll. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Baca Aye. Senator Hughes. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Hughes Aye. Senator Knight. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Knight Aye. Senator Lewis. 



25 



SENATOR LEWIS: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Lewis Aye. Senator Burton. 
CHAIRMAN BURTON: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Burton Aye. Five to zero. 
CHAIRMAN BURTON: Congratulations, Marty. 
MR. MORGENSTERN: Thank you. 
[Thereupon this portion of the 
Senate Rules Committee hearing was 
terminated at approximately 2:13 P.M.] 
— ooOoo — 



26 

CERTIFICATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER 

I, EVELYN J. MIZAK, a Shorthand Reporter of the State 
of California, do hereby certify: 

That I am a disinterested person herein; that the 
foregoing transcript of the Senate Rules Committee hearing was 
reported verbatim in shorthand by me, Evelyn J. Mizak, and 
thereafter transcribed into typewriting. 

I further certify that I am not of counsel or 
attorney for any of the parties to said hearing, nor in any way 
interested in the outcome of said hearing. 

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this 
^6' ^ day of ^^>^^Ao<-^cA^^ , 1999. 



Sr^BVELYN' J. IjUZAK/^ 
Shorthand Reporter 



02/18/99 THU 13:44 FAI 3228376 PERSONNEL ADMIN • 1^002 

27 



STATEMENT OF MARTIN W. MORGENSTERN 

SENATE RULES COMMITTEE CONFIRMATION HEARING 

FEBRUARY 24, 1999 

In response to Senator Burton's request, I am pleased to provide this statement for the 
Senate Rules Committee confirmation hearing on my appointment as Director of the 
Department of Personnel Administration (DPA). 

The Director of DPA has three basic responsibilities. They are (1) to represent the 
Governor In his dealing with State employees, their unions and other organizations; 
(2) to administer, in cooperation with the State Personnel Board (SPB), the State's 
personnel system, including compensation, classification, benefits, promotion, 
recruitment, discipline, retention, training and related matters; and lastly to be an ex 
officio member of the CalPERS Board of Administration. 

My immediate priority is to restore a respectful, functional, collective bargaining 
relationship with all of the unions representing State employees. Negotiations have 
begun. I am hopeful that they will lead to agreements being submitted to the 
Legislature before the end of next month, for some units at least. In the longer term, I 
hope to build an on-going relationship between the State and the unions representing 
State workers that is characterized by mutual respect, timely agreements, and a 
partnership approach to problem solving. While labor and management are never going 
to agree on everything, neither need we be In a constant state of conflict. I believe we 



U>- l^ UK IML IJ.-J-l hAA J:i:i»J70 I'tKbUMrttL Ai>MlIN 



1^003 

28 



can avoid the bitterness and mutual animosities that seem to have caused bargaining 
stalemates in the past. 

Any discussion of bargaining leads to questions about salaries. The majority of our 
employees have not received a raise in more than four years. We want to negotiate fair 
salary increases for State employees and to do it soon. In the longer term I hope to put 
together a department team of negotiators, and others, with a new attitude toward 
employees and their organizations. Califomia should never again go four years without 
labor agreements in place for most of its workforce. State employees are too vital a 
resource to put in such jeopardy. There must be good faith collective bargaining 
conducted with a determination to keep salaries and working conditions fair and 
competitive. In return the State will receive labor stability, and benefit from the 
accomplishments of a productive workforce. 

In recent years, civil service reform has been both a bargaining and legislative topic. 
Certainly we agree that improvements should be made in the State's personnel system. 
I would not, however, characterize the last package of State demands for change or 
"refonn" as improvements. They appear to have been presented in a "take it or leave it" 
fashion and were a major cause of bargaining impasses in most units. Together with 
the unions we would like to look in other directions. These may include the new 
proposals of the Little Hoover Commission. At the very least, these represent a step 
forward from the last set of proposals management put on the table. Perhaps they will 
serve to engage the unions. State agencies, SPB, and other interested parties in a 



2- 



0^/ltt/ifi* iilLI 10:40 tAA ^itiOOlO rC^RSVi^lMCji^ AffflilN • itfJW* 

29 



constructive dialogue about building a better personnel system. The Hoover 
Commission proposals suggested strategies for improvement in a wide range of areas, 
including recmitment, civil service examining, position classification, salary 
administration, training, and management development. All of these are areas in which 
consensus and cooperation can further our ultimate goal, to have an outstanding and 
properly respected workforce that provides timely, cost-effective, and high-quality 
service to the public. 

As a new member of the CalPERS Board, I am aware of the many issues facing our 
retirement system, including the second-tier retirement benefit and the need to protect 
retirees from the long-term effects of inflation. I look forward to working with my fellow 
Board members to seek needed improvements and efficiencies in the system. 

Finally I would add that our highly successful Savings Plus Program, in which State 
employees have entrusted more than 4 billion of their own dollars for our safekeeping, is 
moving ahead on schedule to Implement the requirements of SB 1416. As required, we 
will be reporting back to the Legislature by April 15, 1999. We would hope that by this 
fall or not much later, SPP members will be able to put their money in a wide array of 
stocks, bonds, and mutual funds. 

As you requested, I have kept these comments brief. I want to thank the committee for 
this prompt opportunity to offer my views on managing DPA. I will be happy to discuss 
these or other topics and answer any committee questions now or any other time. 



366-R 

Additional copies of this publication may be purchased for $3.25 per copy 
(includes shipping and handling) plus current California sales tax. 

Senate Publications 

1 020 N Street, Room B-53 

Sacramento, CA 95814 

(916)327-2155 

Make checks payable to SENATE RULES COMMITTEE. 
Please include Stock Number 366-R when ordering. 



SENATE RULES COMMITTEE 



^ 



STATE OF CALIFORNIA 




DOCUMENTS DEPT. 

MAR - 8 1999 

SAN FRANCISCO 
PUBLIC LIBRARY 



STATE CAPITOL 

ROOM 113 

SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA 

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 17, 1999 
1:30 P.M. 



365-R 



SENATE RULES COMMITTEE 
STATE OF CALIFORNIA 



HEARING 



STATE CAPITOL 

ROOM 113 

SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA 



WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 11, 1999 
1:30 P.M. 



Reported by: 



Evelyn J. Mizak 
Shorthand Reporter 



11 



1 APPEARANCES 

2 MEMBERS PRESENT 

3 SENATOR JOHN BURTON, Chair 

4 SENATOR JOHN LEWIS, Vice Chair 

5 SENATOR JOE BACA 

6 SENATOR TERESA HUGHES 

7 SENATOR WILLIAM KNIGHT 



8 

9 

10 



21 

22 



24 
25 
26 
27 
28 



STAFF PRESENT 



GREG SCHMIDT, Executive Officer 
PAT WEBB, Committee Secretary 

11 NETTIE SABELHAUS, Consultant on Governor's Appointments 

12 WADE TEASDALE, Consultant to SENATOR LEWIS 
FELICE TANENBAUM, Consultant to SENATOR HUGHES 
ANDY PUGNO, Consultant to SENATOR KNIGHT 
MANNY HERNANDEZ, Consult to SENATOR BACA 

ALSO PRESENT 



13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 

19 

FRED POSTEL 
20 California Fire Chiefs Association 



W. DALLAS JONES, Director 
Office of Emergency Services 



DAN TERRY, President 

California Professional Fire Fighters 



23 DAN CURT IN 

California State Council of Carpenters 



GRANTLAND L. JOHNSON, Secretary 
Health and Human Services Agency 

SENATOR DEBORAH ORTIZ 



Ill 



19 

20 



STEVEN THOMPSON 

California Medical Association 



2 

TED RUHIG, Secretary 
^ California Seniors Coalition 

4 

TERRY BRENNAND 

5 SEIU 

6 BETH CAPELL 
Health Access 



BILL POWERS 

Congress of California Seniors 



TERRI THOMAS 
10 California Association of Public Hospitals and Health Systems 

^1 MARGARET PENA 

California State Association of Counties 

13 BURNS VI CK 

Vick and Associates 

14 

15 
16 



CASEY McKEEVER 

Western Center on Law & Poverty 



STEPHEN A. MACOLA 

17 California Emergency Foodlink 

18 ROBERT PRESLEY, Secretary 
Youth and Adult Correctional Agency 



ASSEMBLYMAN ROBERT PACHECO 



21 JOHN P. QUIMBY, Lobbyist 

San Bernardino County Board of Supervisors 
22 

JOHN LOVELL 
23 California Police Chiefs Association 

California Peace Officers Association 

24 

25 RANDY A. PERRY 

PORAC 
26 

ROY MABRY, State President 
2^ Association of Black Correctional Officers 

28 



IV 



7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
26 
27 
28 



ALAN CLARKE 

Chief probation Officers 



1 FRANK R. SETUICY, State President 

Chicano Correctional Officers Association 

2 

3 

4 

JIM VOGTS 

5 Los Angeles County Professional Peace Officers 

6 JEFF THOMPSON 
California Correctional Peace Officers Association 



V 



1 INDEX 



2 

3 

4 

5 

W. DALLAS JONES, Director 
6 Office of Emergency Services 1 



11 
12 

13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 
26 
27 
28 



Page 
Proceedings 1 

Governor's Appointees: ' 



Background and Experience 1 

Questions by SENATOR LEWIS re: 



Labor Responsibilities vs. 
10 Job Responsibilities 2 



Recently Declared Federal Disaster re: 

Central Valley Freeze 3 

Number of Assistance Centers to Handle 

Freeze Disaster 4 

Amount of Money Ultimately Spent 4 

Risk Assessment of Potential Y2K 

Problems 5 

Y2K and National Power Grid 6 

Questions by SENATOR BACA re: 

OES Efforts to Assist Those Affected 

By December Freeze 6 

Questions by SENATOR HUGHES re: 

Allegations that OES Lost Counties' 

Paperwork and Reports 7 

Commitment to Look into Allegations 8 



VI 



J witnesses in Support : 

2 FRED POSTEL, Fire Chief, West Sacramento 

California Fire Chiefs Association 
^ Fire Chiefs and Fire Districts Legislative Coininittee . . 9 



11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 



18 
19 
20 



22 
23 
24 
25 
26 



DAN TERRY, President 

California Professional Fire Fighters 9 



6 DAN CURT IN 

California State Council of Carpenters 10 



Motion to Confirm 10 

Committee Action 10 



10 GRANTLAND L. JOHNSON, Secretary 

Health and Human Services Agency 10 



Introduction and Support by 

SENATOR DEBORAH ORTIZ 10 

Background and Experience 11 

Questions by SENATOR LEWIS re: 

Expansion of Healthy Families Program 12 



j-y Risk of Private Employers Dropping 

Insurance Coverage 13 



Appropriateness of Massively Expanding 

Healthy Families Program while Enrollment 

Has not Met Expectations 14 



2j Policy Regarding Adoption by 

Alternative Life Style Families 16 



Governor' s Proposed COLA Increase for 

Welfare Recipients and State Employees 16 

Response by CHAIRMAN BURTON 16 

Questions by SENATOR HUGHES re: 



Possibility of Public Service 
27 Announcements to Encourage Enrollment 

In Healthy Families 17 



28 



Vll 



15 
16 



20 
21 



23 
24 
25 



Quality of Care at HMOs 18 

Possibility of Universal Health 

Care Coverage in California 19 



1 Efforts to Get Other Agencies and 

Departments to Work Together 17 

2 

3 
4 
5 

Funds Grandparents Receive vs. 
6 Foster Parents 20 

'' Questions by CHAIRMAN BURTON re: 

Regulatory or Statutory Problem 21 

9 

Questions by SENATOR BACA re: 

10 

Impact of Five-Year Limit on 

11 Aid under CalWORKS 21 



Witnesses in Support : 



12 

13 

STEVE THOMPSON 

14 California Medical Association 23 



TED RUHIG, Secretary 

California Seniors Coalition 24 



17 TERRY BRENNAND 

Service Employees International Union 24 

18 

BETH CAPELL 
19 Health Access 24 



BILL POWERS 

Congress of California Seniors 25 



22 TERR I THOMAS 

California Association of Public Hospitals 

And Health Systems 25 



MARGARET PENA 

California State Association of Counties 25 



26 CASEY McKEEVER 

Western Center on Law and Poverty 25 

27 
28 



VIU 



1 STEPHEN MACOLA 

California Emergency Food Link 26 

2 

BURNS VICK, Lobbyist 
^ Vice and Associates 26 



19 

20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



Motion to Confirm 26 

Committee Action 26 



ROBERT PRESLEY, Secretary 
^ Youth and Adult Correctional Agency 27 



Introduction and Support by 

ASSEMBLYMAN ROD PACHECO 27 



8 
9 
10 Brief Opening Statement 28 

Questions by SENATOR HUGHES re: 

12 

Efforts to Block Whistle-Blowers 28 

13 

Possibility of Making Discrimination 

14 Against Whistle-Blowers a Felony 29 

15 Questions by SENATOR LEWIS re: 

Anticipation of 42,000 Additional 
j7 Prisoners by 2001 30 

18 Position on Privatization 31 



Change in Pelican Bay since Federal 

Consent Decree 31 

Position on Psychiatric Evaluations and/or 

Drug Testing for Prison Employees 32 

Questions by CHAIRMAN BURTON re: 

Cost of Requiring High School Diploma 

As Part of Parole Eligibility in Youth 

Authority 33 



26 Possibility of Mentoring Programs in 

Adult Prisons 34 

27 

28 



IX 



1 Questions by SENATOR BACA re: 

2 Access to Illegal Substances in Prison 35 

3 Questions by CHAIRMAN BURTON re: 
4 

Press Allegations that Prison Employees 

5 Bring in as Many Drugs as Visitors 36 

6 How Visitors Smuggle Drugs into an 

Institution 37 

7 

8 



16 

17 



Witnesses in Support : 



9 JOHN P. QUIMBY 

County of San Bernardino 37 

10 

JOHN LOVELL 

•1 California Police Chiefs Association 

California Peace Officers Association 38 

12 

13 RANDY PERRY 

PORAC 38 

14 

ROY MABRY, State President 
^5 Association of Black Correctional Workers 39 



STEPHEN MACOLA 

California Emergency Food Link 40 



ALAN CLARKE 

Chief Probation Officers of California 41 



18 FRANK R. SEARCY, President 

Chicano Correctional Workers Association 40 

19 

20 

21 

JIM VOGTS 

22 Los Angeles County Professional 

Peace Officers Association 41 

23 

24 
25 

26 Motion to Confirm 42 

27 Committee Action 43 

28 



JEFF THOMPSON 

California Correctional Peace Officers 

Association 42 



3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 

26 

27 

28 



Termination of Proceedings 43 

2 Certificate of Reporter 44 

Statement of GRANTLAND JOHNSON 45 



P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 
— OOOoo — 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: The first person appearing 
today is Grantland Johnson, Governor's nominee for Secretary of 
Health and Human Services. He's not here yet. 

We'll go for Dallas Jones. And without 
objection, they want permission to take a picture of us. 

Go ahead. 

MR. JONES: Mr. Chairman and Members of the 
Committee, I'd like to tell you a little bit about myself, then 
briefly go into a few issues of my goals for the Office of 
Emergency Services. 

Prior to my appointment in January of Director of 
the Office of Emergency Services, I was a fire fighter for 32 
years and served for 16 years as the President of the Los 
Angeles County Fire Fighters. I was that organization's chief 
negotiator on labor contracts, representing over 2400 fire 
fighters, helicopter pilots, heavy equipment operators, 
hazardous materials technicians, dispatchers, and fire 
prevention personnel. 

Originally appointed to the State Board of Fire 
Services by Governor Deukmejian, I served for eight years on the 
State Board of Fire Services. I was also a member of FEMA's 
Urban Search and Rescue Advisory Board, and the lESF Hazardous 
Materials Advisory Board. 

Currently, we in OES are working on the freeze 
disaster assistance to provide timely and effective response to 
the needs of the communities while emphasizing the role of the 



local community, including public officials, labor, business, 
and the other community organizations. 

We are addressing the concern of terrorism, 
including anthrax problems, by providing preparation and 
planning and training for first responders and other agencies. 
We understand that terrorism could potentially cause wide-spread 
damages, and we are working to ensure our readiness for a 
variety of possible problems. 

In the future, we want to increase our over-all 
emphasis on disaster planning preparedness and hazard mitigation 
efforts. Our goal is to strengthen and enhance an increasingly 
cost effective process which will eventually reduce the economic 
and physical losses due to disasters. I'm already beginning the 
process of developing improved relationships with FEMA. Our 
goal is to work with FEMA to speed up and improve all phases of 
mitigation, planning, response and recovery efforts. 

With the development of our new centralized OES 
offices, on line for groundbreaking in July of this year, which 
is being built at the old Mather Air Force Base, we believe that 
we'll be able to continue to improve our internal coordination 
to improve our over-all delivery of services. 

That's pretty much my over-all view at this point 
in time. We've been pretty busy because of the freeze to go 
into some of the other areas, but I'd be more than happy to 
answer any questions you may have of me. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Yes, Senator Lewis. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Thank you. 

Mr. Jones, welcome to the Committee. Looking at 



your resume, and you mentioned in your opening statement, you've 
been involved in a number of labor organizations and a number of 
labor responsibilities. 

I was curious, when you have that kind of 
responsibility, is that a full-time, or does it preclude you 
from having the ability to be on the line? 

MR. JONES: Mostly they're part-time, quite 
frankly. I would go back in the evenings to my post with my 
duty locations, but during the day it was a full-time CEO 
position. Local 1014 had over $6 million a year budget. They 
had 14 staff personnel, and also administered and self -funded 
and administered an insurance program, one of the only few in 
the United States. 

SENATOR LEWIS: You've been on the line in the 
last few years? 

MR. JONES: On the line, yes, sir. In fact, my 
last tour of duty was December 29th. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Question about the timing, that 
President Clinton recently declared a federal disaster with 
regard to the Central Valley freeze. What in your estimation is 
the reason that it took a little longer than it seemed it should 
have taken? 

MR. JONES: Well, in looking back, and we looked 
back quite quickly at the freeze of 1990 and 1991. And actually 
the Presidential Declaration was a little bit quicker than 
that. That was one of the things we looked at. We also looked 
at the response from HAG and Small Business Agency. They came 
in with their disaster declaration quickly. 



SENATOR LEWIS: You have 15 assistance centers? 
Do you have 15 assistance centers that have been set up? 

MR. JONES: Yes, 15 to 17. We're also looking 
at two alternative locations based on need. Disaster assistance 
centers, yes. 

SENATOR LEWIS: How much money do you think 
ultimately we'll be spending as a result of this? 

MR. JONES: One of the things that we've done, 
which is quite novel, is that these disaster assistance centers, 
unlike some operations where we come in and pick new sites, we 
are actually utilizing community-based organization sites, so 
there's only a couple of those that are not from the firm called 
Proteus, local organizations that provide farmworker assistance. 
So what we've done is, we've gone in and partnered with them to 
utilize their sites at no cost to the state. And then we're 
putting in staff people in from different departments, EDD, 
Social Services, hopefully FEMA if we get on board with the 
rental and mortgage assistance program. So, we're looking at a 
fairly nominal cost to this point. 

SENATOR LEWIS: So, projecting ahead, do you 
think that it will continue to be nominal costs, I guess in 
terms of what the state shells out versus what we might expect 
in federal reimbursements. What are you projecting? 

MR. JONES: We're looking at a cost probably less 
than $5 million, total cost to the operation. Depending on the 
level of federal involvement, of course, from this point 
forward, because we still have some very heavy unmet needs in 
the areas of rental, mortgage assistance, utility payments, and 



also the UI portion. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Just one final question. Has OES 
done any kind of risk assessment with any kind of potential 
problems associated with the Y2K problem? 

MR. JONES: Currently the Governor's Office is 
utilizing the Teale Data Center to assess the risks of most 
state agencies. They're also the lead agency for ours. 

What we've been concentrating on is putting 
together contingency planning for local government, local county 
and state agencies, in the event of potential problems as a 
result of Y2K. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Just out of curiosity, in your 
capacity, if you were to envision a worst case scenario as a 
result of Y2K, what would be the thing that you'd be most 
worried about right now? 

MR. JONES: Well, I think there's a real 
potential for overreaction, quite frankly, because what we are 
recommending is no different than the normal earthquake 
preparedness measures that everyone in the state should have on 
line already. But because of some of the hoopla in the press, 
and the gloom and doom scenarios, we think there's a potential 
for people to over react to this problem and create problems in 
that measure. 

I'll give you a quick example, would be the 
storage of gasoline. When we had gasoline problems in the past, 
people would store it in plastic containers, therefore creating 
all kinds of peripheral problems. And so, when you get into 
hoarding money and gasoline, those things, they could create 



other problems of their own. 

SENATOR LEWIS: I've been fielding a number of 
phone calls and letters in my office asking me technical 
questions about Y2K beyond my capacity, but it's something I'm 
sure you have to be somewhat concerned with. 

Any fear at all about the national power grid? 

MR. JONES: We have been working very closely 
with the utilities associations. One of the things you always 
get into the with the business community is, there is a concern 
for litigation. So, where they're at in the preparation 
process, we think, hasn't fully been explained to the public, 
and we're working them to get all that information out as soon 
as possible. We think that'll be main role of the Teale Data 
Center and the Governor's activities in that regard. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Baca, then Senator 
Hughes . 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 

Dallas, you may have responded earlier, and maybe 
I wasn't paying attention, or maybe I want additional 
clarification, in reference to the freeze recovery. 

Could you tell the Committee what OES efforts are 
to assist farmers, farmworkers, and any others who have suffered 
losses as a result of the December freeze? 

MR. JONES: Certainly, be happy to. 

The first thing is that OES ' s primary job and 
role in any disaster is to coordinate local, state and federal 
activities in support of both response and recovery of the 
disaster efforts. 



Very early on after the freeze, it was identified 
that the primary problems would be worker related rather than 
grower related. And part of that is due to the high incidence, 
about 70 percent of the crop was insured* They also indicated 
very early on that it didn't seem to be a lot damage to the 
trees or public infrastructure. 

So that then leads us into the problem with the 
workers. These are not a migrant workforce. They are a 
permanent workforce in the area, very hard working people who 
are very close to a socio-economic disaster at any good given 
day with full employment. So, we knew right off that the main 
needs would be exactly where we are concentrating our efforts: 
food, housing, utility assistance, and unemployment insurance, 
because most of these people are workers and have been paid 
unemployment . 

So that's where we focused most of our efforts is 
into those areas to get assistance into those areas from the 
local providers, while we are able to ramp up our federal 
declarations and our state assistance. So, we've been primarily 
coordinating those efforts to making sure that we're providing 
food, food link, and the food distribution centers. So that's 
where we've mainly concentrated our efforts. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Hughes. 

SENATOR HUGHES: It's been alleged that OES 
frequently lost the counties' DSR reports and paperwork. Is 
this true, or are you aware of that? Is that an idle 
complaint. 



8 

MR. JONES: I really can't verify any of those 
statements that you made. 

SENATOR HUGHES: I didn't make it. I'm saying 
it's been alleged. This is what I've heard. 

MR. JONES: I can't verify that any of those have 
occurred. 

I am aware of a feeling from many of the rural 
counties that they feel that they have not gotten equal 
treatment in the past regimes with OES. I am looking into that. 
If it's individuals involved, we'll take the appropriate action 
to make sure that every county in the state gets a fair hearing 
of their problems and that we work as advocates for their 
solutions to solve their problems. 

SENATOR HUGHES: This is where I got it from. On 
Thursday, February the 11th, there was a meeting and the public 
works directors repeated many of their earlier complaints, 
particularly about FEMA, and secondarily about OES, while 
acknowledging that both had made some progress. But a CSAC 
lobbyist complained that you hadn't responded to her request to 
meet to discuss the issues. 

Are you aware of this, or is this someone who 
worked for you, that she tried to get an appointment with or 
didn't get appointment with? Do you know anything about this? 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: You could look into it and get 
back to us. That would be quite helpful. 

MR. JONES: I'll be happy to. I'm not aware of 
it right now. 

SENATOR HUGHES: I don't know about this for 



sure; this is hearsay. 

MR. JONES: Sure. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Are you aware that the counties 
complain about the same thing on two other occasions, so in the 
'95 and '98 storms, you'll look at those, too, for us? 

MR. JONES: Yes. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Witnesses in support? Do you 
have anyone you want to introduce? Any family? 

MR. JONES: No, actually my family's still 
located in Los Angeles. I have two grown sons, by the way, and 
both of them are first responders that I'm very proud of. 

MR. POSTEL: Mr. Chairman, Members of the 
Committee, I'm Fred Postel, Fire Chief of West Sacramento. I'm 
here representing the California Fire Chiefs Association and the 
Fire Chiefs and Fire Districts Legislative Committee. 

I'm here to support Dallas' appointment as 
Director of the Office of Emergency Services and the support of 
the California Fire Chiefs Association. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Thank you. 

MR. TERRY: Thank you. Senator Burton. I'm Dan 
Terry. I'm the President of the California Professional Fire 
Fighters. We represent all rank and file fire fighters in the 
state of California. 

I, too, am here to supports Dallas' appointment. 
Let me just say that I have had the personal pleasure to know 
Dallas for 25 years. He is a man of great integrity, great 
skill, and tough in the clinches. I think it's a good 



10 

appointment, and I would appreciate your support. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Thank you. 

MR. CURTIN: Mr. Chairman, Members, Danny Curt in, 
California State Council of Carpenters. 

I've known Dallas Jones for 25 years, and I 
reiterate everything Dan Terry said. I'm looking forward to 
know who to call in the case of an emergency. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Moved by Senator Baca. Call 
the roll. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Baca Aye. Senator Hughes. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Hughes Aye. Senator Knight. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Knight Aye. Senator Lewis. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Lewis Aye. Senator Burton. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Burton Aye. Five to zero. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Thank you. Congratulations. 

MR. JONES: Thank you very much for the 
confidence you've placed in me. Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Ortiz, you want to 
introduce Grant land. 

SENATOR ORTIZ: Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, 
Members. I've been re minded to be brief; I will do so. 

It's an honor to be able to introduce Secretary 



11 

Designate Grantland Johnson for the Health and Human Service 
Agency. For those of you who are not familiar with our local, 
born and raised Sacramento leader here, Grantland Johnson 
served on the City Council for two years, which some of us 
believe is the best training in the world for elected office. 
He served from '83 to '86 on the Sacramento City Council, then 
was elevated to the Board of Supervisors from '87 to '93, and in 
the wisdom of our President was appointed as Region Nine 
Director the Department of Health and Human Services. 

I can't think of anyone who is more prepared for 
this job, and I think will lead the State of California and 
deliver the vision of our Governor as well as most Californians 
in understanding the needs of a very complex, very large agency. 

With that, I would respectfully request your 
favorable consideration of his appointment, my friend, former 
Supervisor Grantland Johnson, and hopefully Secretary of the 
Health and Human Services Agency of California. 

MR. JOHNSON: Thank you. Senator Ortiz. 

Senator Burton and Members, thank you very much. 
Let me first apologize for being a little late this morning. 

I submitted to you in advance a prepared 
statement. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: It'll be made part of the 
record. 

MR. JOHNSON: Let me just say briefly, without 
reading the statement in total, that first of all, I'm deeply 
honored to be designated by Governor Davis as the designee for 
the position of Secretary of Health and Human Services. I 



12 

believe that in some ways, it represents the culmination of a 
life-long set of ambitions in terms of public service. I deeply 
care about the state of California, and deeply care about the 
constituents who are served by the Agency. 

Throughout my career , I ' ve attempted to be 
forthright. I've attempted to work diligently. I've attempted 
to balance a range competing interests and demands in the 
interest of forging sound public policy. 

Under my stewardship, I hope that the Agency 
would run effectively, be accountable to the taxpayers and 
electorate of this great state, and that we provide the Governor 
with sound policy recommendations, and that we work 
cooperatively with all interested stakeholders, particularly 
Members of the State Legislature, and within our communities, 
affected individuals, affected populations, and affected 
industries and organizations. 

Thank you very much for this opportunity to 
appear before you this afternoon. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Thank you. 

Senator Lewis. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Mr. Johnson, I understand that 
one of the new administration's priorities is an expansion of 
the Healthy Families Program, and that at least one of the 
proposals that's being kicked around is to expand the 
eligibility to perhaps as high as 250 percent of the federal 
poverty level, and maybe even beyond that on the county level. 

If that's the case, my understanding is that for 
a family of four, it take would take eligibility up to $48,000 a 



13 



year. 

And then lastly, if that's the case, unless you 
can dispel me of that, don't you run the risk of private 
employers dropping insurance coverage, and dumping it off, and 
creating a new problem? 

MR. JOHNSON: I think that there are two issues, 
Senator Lewis, suggested by your question. One is the first 
issue of potential crowd out, this notion of private employers 
dropping their employer responsive coverage in order for that to 
be supplanted by publicly funded coverage. 

The second has to do with employers facing, I 
believe, a real reality in many cases of escalating premiums and 
the inability financially to continue their sponsorship of such 
coverage for their employees, and by association, their 
dependents. 

In the first instance with regard to crowd out, I 
think there are some things that states have found that could be 
done to counteract this question of crowd out. For example, 
simply requiring a significant gap in terms of a person leaving 
private insurance before they can join a publicly sponsored 
insurance program, say six months, and also requiring employers 
not to drop their coverage in order for it to be supplanted by 
public responsive coverage. 

Right now, there's some prohibitions against that 
under the California law that establishes Healthy Families. 

SENATOR LEWIS: How do you know that that's a 
reason? 

MR. JOHNSON: You can basically ask for a 



14 

declaration, as we do now when you're covered. Have you been 
covered in the past few months, for example, past three months? 
Extend it six months, you are more apt to capture whether or not 
an employer is sort of gaming the system by, en mass, dropping 
their employees from coverage and encouraging them to enter 
public coverage. 

I think also, too, the question has to be 
weighed. Inherent to that is relative trade-off. To what 
extent will this phenomena occur? We really don't know. But 
even to the extent that it does occur, the question becomes on 
balance with regard to the welfare of children: is that an 
acceptable trade-off to the extent that it occurs? And again, 
we don't know to what extent that would occur. That is an 
imponderable at this point. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Enrollment so far hasn't met 
expectations. Now we're talking about massively expanding 
eligibility. 

Is it appropriate to, perhaps, first of all try 
to have it more inclusive for those that are truly in need? 
Sounds like we might be mixing up our priorities a little bit. 

MR. JOHNSON: No, I think that what we are 
talking about is attempting to tackle a number of things at the 
same time. A number of reasons why we've had low enrollment up 
to this point simply can be traced to a number of obvious 
factors. You're probably aware of these as much as I am. 
They've had to read a very long application, about 28 pages, is 
not an inducement to enrollment. We're working on reducing the 
size of the application down to about 4 pages. 



15 

Secondly, the way in which we reach out to 
eligible children hasn't been the most effective strategy, in my 
opinion. We are changing that by broadening our utilization of 
community-based and faith-based organizations, for example, 
persons who are familiar with the families and these children, 
who have the trust and the confidence of these families to 
encourage them to enroll their children into the program. 

We're also trying to explain to immigrant 
families, for example, that children in this county who are here 
legally are eligible for these services, and enrollment in 
Healthy Families or Medicaid cannot be used as a basis for 
so-called public charge allegation on the part of INS. 

I think that these are very important steps to be 
taken. Also, out-station eligibility workers to work with 
health care workers to enroll these children makes the 
environment much more conducive and much more effective in terms 
of reaching out. 

And I think also ultimately, we have to look at 
Medicaid as a program that, up until 1996, was linked intimately 
with welfare, in this case Temporary Assistance for Needy 
Families, formerly Aid to Families with Dependent Children. 

The federal government saw fit to make a 
separation or delete the relationship. We should do same thing 
here in California and move to a view of Medi-Cal as a health 
care program as opposed to a welfare program, and reduce the 
stigma attached to Medi-Cal, and look at it as an effort to 
enroll children, provide them health care services. We are 
looking at ways of doing that. 



16 

SENATOR LEWIS: Another issue altogether, one of 
the very emotional personal issues of adoption. What is going 
to be your policy regarding adoption relative to alternative 
life style families? 

MR. JOHNSON: I think that basically we should 
look at the fitness of an adult to provide a caring, nurturing 
environment for children; are they interested and committed to 
protecting the health and welfare, and seeing to ensuring the 
development of the child into a healthy, contributing adult, and 
making sure that that child has the greatest amount of 
resources, both in terms of material and in terms of emotional 
support possible. 

It seems to me that any adult who demonstrates 
and can meet that litmus test ought to be considered eligible to 
be a parent. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Last question. In the Governor's 
proposed budget, state employees will receive a 2 percent COLA, 
welfare recipients slightly larger. 

Is that a correct view of priorities of the new 
administration? 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: One of those is General Fund, 
and the other is non-General Fund. 

MR. JOHNSON: Thanks, Senator Burton. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Were you asking me or him? 
[Laughter. ] 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: There seems to be strong 
support for Jim Brulte's 20 percent employee raise. 

I'm sorry; I thought he was directing that 



question to me. 

Senator Hughes. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Thank you very much, 
Mr. President. 

I'm concerned, like you are, about the number of 
families that have not enrolled in Healthy Families, and the 
tremendous number of children out there that are not covered. 
You cited the reason, which is a real one: they're afraid of a 
public charge. 

Have you thought of anything like public service 
announcements so that you can wipe away some of this fear, and 
the people will come forth, because they have so many sick 
children around? Have you thought about that, or is that a 
possibility? 

MR. JOHNSON: It is a possibility, and we are 
launching additional efforts through the public service 
announcements. Also, there are more grassroots community-based 
approaches to communicate to families the importance of 
enrolling their children in low-cost health insurance. 

SENATOR HUGHES: What about the other agencies of 
government working together? About two years ago, I had some 
legislation that required that these various agencies come 
together that deal with children and families, and exchange 
information. 

In your administration, are you going to 
revitalize that effort so that one department isn't just doing 
their own thing without other department knowing what they're 
doing? 



18 

MR. JOHNSON: If you recall, Senator Hughes, 
about a year ago, President Clinton announced an initiative in 
this area in which he requested relevant federal agencies to 
come up with plans to participate and assist HHS in the 
enrollment of children in what they called the State Children's 
Health Insurance Plan, which we call Healthy Families: Head 
Start Programs, education programs, food stamp program, WIC 
programs, child care-day care programs, health care clinics, 
physician offices, any place in which families and children very 
contact. Any instance where the message can be reinforced and 
the efforts can be supported and supplemented ought to be 
utilized. 

I plan to establish that kind of coordinated 
effort not only within the Agency, but beyond the Agency. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Good, good. 

MR. JOHNSON: Public housing projects, for 
example. Housing and Community Development should be a player in 
this effort. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Do you think that our citizens 
are really being served by HMOs? What do you think about the 
quality of the care that they receive out there? 

MR. JOHNSON: I think that there's a widespread 
concern amongst consumers who are members of managed care plans 
that they oftentimes are not being treated fairly. Oftentimes, 
the decisions are being made that pre-empt their relationship to 
their physician or their primary care provider. I think there's 
widespread concern that when there are differences of opinion 
over covered options, or diagnosis and treatment decisions, 



19 

that the doctors ' opinions are being pre-empted by persons who 
are unqualified. 

As you know, my counterpart, Secretary Maria 
Contreras-Sweet and I have been asked by the Governor in the 
budget to bring back to him, within a 60-day time period from 
the date of the State of the State message, a set of 
recommendations in this area of regulating managed care plans, 
health maintenance organizations, in which we will suggest to 
the Governor a number of reforms that can increase and ensure to 
the public that there's greater accountability of HMOs' managed 
care plans, that there is more certainty in terms of treatment, 
and that we do more to ensure the quality of care being provided 
to our citizens. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Do you feel that we can or that 
we ever will reach universal health care coverage here in the 
state? 

MR. JOHNSON: I don't think, frankly, by 
ourselves, solely on our own with the devices, that we can 
achieve universal coverage. I think we can substantially 
achieve expanded coverage of the roughly 7 million people who 
are uninsured. How many remains to be seen. 

Can we. Senator? It seems to me that until we 
have a national commitment of resources and policy towards 
universal coverage, that a state like California, as large and 
as complex as it is, simply won't be able to achieve anything 
approximating universal coverage. 

However, we can do much, much more than we have 
done up to this point, and we should do much more. 



20 

SENATOR HUGHES: I want to ask you a question 
that I had asked you before in private, and I want you to 
respond to it again in public. And that was about the 
restrictions that are invoked by federal law, I believe, that 
grandparents cannot receive the same amount of funds for caring 
for their grandchild that a foster parent can receive. And this 
greatly bothers me. 

And you had indicated some dialogue that you 
hoped would take place so that we could ease up on those 
restrictions in some shape, form, or fashion? 

MR. JOHNSON: There are two responses. 

One, we currently have a kinship or kin-care 
demonstration project underway now. 

Secondly, this coming Friday, we're meeting with 
representatives from the — 

SENATOR HUGHES: I wanted to hear him say it in 
public so that the public can hear what his proposal is. 

Would you continue, please? 

MR. JOHNSON: Yes, what I was saying, the first I 
mentioned was the fact that we have undergoing now a set of 
pilot projects around the so-called kin-care or kinship care 
approach to demonstrate that it's something that we should be 
universally applying. 

And secondly, we are engaging in discussions with 
the US Department of Health and Human Services, first this 
coming Friday, when a team of them are coming out here to 
discuss a number of other areas of common interest. Next week, 
as the Governor attends the National Governors Association 



21 



meeting, he and I will be meeting with Secretary Shalala on 
Tuesday, I believe. And at that point in time, we will raise 
this issue, as well as a number of other issues, to see if we 
can expand the efforts in our kinship care. 

We happen to believe that if you can place a 
child with a related family member, a grandparent, uncle, aunt, 
that it makes a lot of sense. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Is that a regulation or a 
statutory prohibition? 

MR. JOHNSON: Statutory, I think, at this point 
in time. Well, it's not totally clear. I think statutory, 
because when I was at HHS, we had this problem, not only in 
California but in New York, in which the request was made. 

It's not something that's been effectively dealt 
with. And so, let me amend my comment. I'm not quite sure 
whether it's regulatory or statutory. That's something we're 
going to explore, and to see what flexibility and wiggle room we 
may have under existing schemes. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 

In four year approximately, 500,000 adults on 
CalWORKS may be reaching their limit on aid. 

What plan is the Agency making to minimize the 
impact of the five-year limits on aid under the CalWORKS 
program? If you have a plan, are you starting to look at it? 

MR. JOHNSON: We are. As you know, a lot of 
folks have declared victory when it comes to welfare reform 



22 

based upon the drop in caseloads. 

I'm somewhat suspect and skeptical of a premature 
rush to judgement in this regard. As your question implies, we 
have yet to encounter the impacts stemming from time limits, 
which we will begin to encounter on a large scale basis July 1 
of this year. 

Secondly, we're now beginning to get to those 
parts of the caseload, those individuals, who are difficult to 
employ for a number of reasons: limited skills, substance and 
alcohol abuse, learning disabilities. There are a whole host of 
reasons in combination that can make it difficult for an 
individual to enter the workforce effectively. 

We've also not encountered and dealt with on a 
large scale basis the phenomena of people first entering a job 
and then being laid off, and then having to go back to a job, as 
anyone who ' s attached to the workforce now encounters 
increasingly given the turning of the economy. That's a 
phenomena that we all who are attached to the workforce are 
prepared to deal with. So, the whole notion of resiliency and 
sticking with the private labor market is something we've never 
encountered on this scale in terms of persons who leave 
welfare. 

So, that means that we have to look at post 
employment strategies. We have look at strategies that take 
into account the need to address these multiple dimensions that 
people are challenged by. I mentioned before learning 
disabilities, alcohol and substance abuse, and so on. 

We also very to make sure that our ability to 



23 

deal with children as their parents are going through training 
and working all kinds of hours — weekends, late nights — is 
effective. 

We will be challenged. No one can say that they 
really have the program strategy because no one has ever done 
this in this country at this scale. But I'm optimistic that if 
we focus on trying to do the things that we know stand in the 
way of individuals trying earn a decent living, and trying to be 
contributing members of society, that we're providing a chance 
of not only giving these folks a place, but keeping their place. 

So, we have to basically look at these challenges 
in the California fashion and recognize that one-size-fits-all 
is not the solution, but we have to understand that not only in 
the public sector, but the community at large has to participate 
in these efforts, including employers. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Witnesses in support. 

MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Chairman, Senators, my name 
Steve Thompson. I'm representing the California Medical 
Association. 

I've personally known Grantland for over 30 
years. We have supported him as an organization both when he 
was Region Nine Director and today. He brings to this office a 
commitment to public service, a sense of innovation, and 
somebody who ' s worked in his community to make it better . He ' s 
a wonderful appointment, and you should be proud to give him a 
yes vote. 

Thank you. 



24 

MR. RUHIG; Thank you, Mr. President. My name is 
Ted Ruhig. I'm almost 82 years old, have be around the block a 
few times. I'm known as a senior activist. I'm Secretary to 
California Seniors Coalition, an organization of 18 statewide 
senior organizations representing more than a million of 
California's seniors. 

I have been a media specialist for the AARP and 
do write our weekly column for the Senior Press. 

But today I speak for myself and proudly to 
support the confirmation of Mr. Grantland Johnson as Secretary 
of Health and Human Services. I've known Grantland Johnson for 
a quarter of a century, since we were both involved with the 
Sacramento Concilio. 

We seniors regard ourselves as particularly 
fortunate that we'll have a champion heading up such a 
significant Agency. This will be very good, not only for 
seniors, but for all the citizens of the state. 

Thank you. Senator, for allowing me to add my 
warm endorsement welcoming Grantland Johnson aboard or 
California ship of state. Thank you. 

MR. BRENNAND: Mr. Chairman, Members, Terry 
Brennand on behalf of Service Employees International. 

I'm very proud to stand up on behalf of Grantland 
Johnson for this job. Thank you. 

MS. CAPELL: Beth Capell on behalf of Health 
Access also in support. And we have had the opportunity to 
discuss a number of the health issues that have been raised by 
the Committee Members and look forward to working with the 



25 

Secretary on this. 

MR. POWERS: Bill Powers on behalf of the 
Congress of California Seniors. 

I can't say more than Ted Ruhig did and urge your 
support . Thanks . 

MS. THOMAS: Terri Thomas on behalf of the 
California Association of Public Hospitals and Health Systems. 

We worked very closely with Mr. Johnson in his 
capacity as a federal administrator. We believe him to be a 
gentleman of the highest capability and integrity, and urge your 
favorable consideration. 

MS. PENA: Margaret Pena on behalf of the 
California State Association of Counties in support of this 
nomination. 

We worked very closely with Mr. Johnson over the 
past six years while he was the Region Nine Director of Health 
and Human Services. We think he is uniquely qualified for this 
position because of his federal and local government experience, 
and we're honored and pleased to support him. 

MR. McKEEVER: Thank you Mr. Chairman and 
Members, Casey McKeever with the Western Center on Law and 
Poverty . 

We've also known Mr. Johnson for several years 
and found him to be open, accessible, and compassionate and 
caring about the interests and needs of low-income people. We 
look forward to working with the administration on these vital 
issues, and we urge your support for his nomination. Thank 
you. 



26 

MR. MACOLA: Mr. Chair and Members, Stephen 
Macola on behalf of the California Emergency Food Link. 

We're very proud of Mr. Johnson, and we ask your 
support and approval of his appointment. 

MR. VICK: Mr. Chairman and Members, Burns Vick, 
a private consultant consulting with groups in the disability, 
mental health, and aging field; such groups as the Easter Seal 
Society, the Independent Living Centers, and others. 

We're all looking forward to working with the new 
administration and new Secretary, particularly since he's very 
consumer and family focused. And we appreciate your support. 

Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Any witnesses in opposition. 

Moved by Senator Hughes. Call the roll. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Baca Aye. Senator Hughes. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Hughes Aye. Senator Knight. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Knight Aye. Senator Lewis. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Lewis Aye. Senator Burton. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Burton Aye. Five to zero. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Congratulations. 

MR. JOHNSON: Thank you very much. 

I'd like to introduce my wife. 



27 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Absolutely. 

MR. JOHNSON: Shirley Bolton. Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: It would have been a bitter 
sweet victory. 

Rod Pacheco is here. I think he wants to 
introduce you. 

Go ahead. Give him the bipartisan flavor. 

ASSEMBLYMAN PACHECO: It's probably going to be 
rare with me, Senator. I'm going to do my best. 

If I can, Members of the Committee, if I may 
introduce and also offer my own support for Senator Presley. 
Senator Presley represented my area and my hometown, so to 
speak, for a number of years as an Assemblyman and as a State 
Senator. He, quite frankly, did a phenomenal job. The only 
downside of it for me has been that the expectations in my 
community have been raised to an unmeetable level, at least for 
the elected officials that have come after him. 

I have known Senator Presley to be a warm, 
caring, and honest and decent man. Certainly those things are 
much more important than any particular issues or philosophies 
you may hold. So, I come today to support him and support his 
nomination by the Governor, and certainly urge your own aye 
votes on behalf of Senator Presley. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Thank you, Mr. Pacheco. 

ASSEMBLYMAN PACHECO: Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Bob. 

MR. PRESLEY: After that, I'd just ask for an aye 
vote. 



28 

[Laughter. ] 

MR. PRESLEY: I could ask; couldn't I? 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: You can ask. 

MR. PRESLEY: Mr. Chairman, Members, I circulated 
to you a statement, I think about a page-and-a-half . It pretty 
much lays out in very general terms the direction that we're 
going to be trying to go in the immediate future. I won't 
repeat that in the interest of time, and just respond to any 
soft questions you may have. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: You're that old? You got a 
Bronze Star in Italy? 

MR. PRESLEY: I started young. I was in the 
first wave of Private Ryan. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: At least you're a Sagittarian, 
but man, I didn't know you were this old. 

MR. PRESLEY: Senator Hughes has a question. 
[Laughter. ] 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Let's go to Senator Hughes 
first. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Thank you very much. 

You know, when I talked to you before, we talked 
about the fact that there ' s a lot of effort to block 
whistle-blowers, and there's retaliation that's going on in some 
departments, blocking people from getting promotions. 

Have you had a chance in the short time that 
you've been there to hear any of these complaints or to look 
into them? 

MR. PRESLEY: Senator, I haven't heard any of the 



29 

complaints, but I have reviewed the policy. I think the 
Department has a pretty good policy. It's a matter, I think, of 
just enforcing it, making sure that it's followed. 

It's basically viewed as a form of discrimination 
and will be pursued in that manner, just like sexual harassment 
would be a form of discrimination and would be pursued in that 
manner as well. 

SENATOR HUGHES: So then, a whistle-blower could 
be prevented from getting a promotion or something like that? 
It's sort of done like an inside number on a person. 

MR. PRESLEY; If you follow this policy and it's 
enforced, there 'd be no problem. 

SENATOR HUGHES: But now according to the law, 
it's a misdemeanor if you did that. 

I was thinking about make it a felony if you did 
that because a lot of people are intimidated on the inside and 
are afraid to go forth and make legitimate complaints, because 
they say that's the end of their career; they'll go nowhere. 

Do you think it would be too stiff to make it a 
felony, or would making it a felony be a severe kind of warning 
that they should have so that your employees wouldn't be 
reluctant to come forth and tell the truth about situations? 

MR. PRESLEY: You know, I heard a lot of those 
complaints when I was here and similar complaints. I'm sure 
that there's something to a lot of it. 

But having reviewed that policy, and it being a 
misdemeanor as you indicate, if I might offer a suggestion, it 
would be to hold it in abeyance for a year and see what we can 



30 

do with it over the next year in terms of enforcing it. 

SENATOR HUGHES: All right, I'll put the bill in, 
and I'll still have time inform get it to the Governor's desk 
before I leave. 

Thank you. 

MR. PRESLEY: A felony, you know, that's pretty 
heavy. But I'd say, give us a year to work with the present 
policy. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Okay, fine. Thank you. 

SENATOR LEWIS: First of all, congratulations, 



Bob. 



it? 



MR. PRESLEY: This isn't air pollution, is 



SENATOR LEWIS: I was going to say, I'm so glad 
you're here on this appointment and nothing dealing with the 
AQMD. 

According to the Master Plan, you're anticipating 
by June of 2003, I think, an additional 42,000 prisoners. 

MR. PRESLEY Basically, I think the projections 
are about 2001. We're beginning to get in real trouble. 

SENATOR LEWIS: What is your thought? 

MR. PRESLEY: But on that thought, there's a few 
good things happening right now. One is, the escalation has 
slowed. It's not growing as fast as had been projected. 

The figure that I've been given is that we are 
down about a prison, which is say 2500 to 2700 prisoners from 
where we should have been given the projections a few years 
ago. 



31 

■ 

Number of things, I think, affecting that, but 
the bottom line is, it's good. 

The big question, of course, is how long that's 
going to hold. That may or may not hold. Demographics plays a 
part. Certainly this state continues to grow in population, so 
I don't think that's going to hold forever. But it fortunately 
will give us a little settle-down time. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Given the potential shortage in 
the years to come, and given incredible costs associated with 
prison construction, are you open at all on the whole issue of 
privatization, private industries helping out, or is that 
something that you would just foreclose. 

MR. PRESLEY: No, I wouldn't foreclose that. I 
think there's a place for some of that. You know, they're not 
going to take over the system, but there's certainly a place for 
that in a number of the lower categories. Maybe in something 
with drug treatment; something in parole revocations, returning, 
some of the lower level short-term people. There's a place for 
that along with the other. 

I think at the present time we have about 
6,000-7,000 in those kinds of facilities, public and private. 
Publics can do that as well, as you know, community 
facilities. 

SENATOR LEWIS: What's been the change at Pelican 
since the federal Consent Decree? 

MR. PRESLEY: Well, they have a warden up there, 
I understand now, that's doing a good job. Supposedly, 
everything's in good shape. I keep being told that you don't 



32 

need to worry about Pelican Bay. 

And that was a problem, as you know, for a long 
time. So, I think it's leveled out. What all the reasons are, 
I'm not sure, but it seems to be working better. 

SENATOR LEWIS: With regard to prison employees, 
what is your temperature on possible either psychiatric 
evaluations or mandatory drug testing? 

MR. PRESLEY: Of entry level you mean? 

SENATOR LEWIS: Exactly. 

MR. PRESLEY: I think psychiatric is certainly in 
order. I think that could be helpful. Good, thorough 
background investigations are a necessity. 

Drug testing, I wouldn't be prepared to do a 
judgement on that at this point, but I think the psychiatric and 
the background are certainly two excellent tools. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Just a couple questions, 
Senator. 

One, I know that when you were in the Senate, you 
were very big on education in the prisons. And you mention here 
that when you were at the Youthful Offender Parole Board, you 
had the no diploma-no parole deal. 

I think even B.T. , when he was here, was like 
grading their spelling. 

In order to enforce that or make that real, it 
would take a commitment by the state to put some dough in it; 
right? How did you do that at the Youthful places? How did you 
fund those things? 



33 

You're right. They used to put out, and I don't 
know if they still do, but the Department of Corrections used to 
have a card like this of all the people in prison, and violent 
crimes, and educational background. And except for maybe a 
spousal murder or familial thing, you never found a college 
graduate doing a violent crime. And as you went down, even 
school graduates, except maybe assault with a deadly weapon, you 
know, bar fights. But when you got to below high school is when 
you saw the really senseless driveby shootings, muggings, rapes, 
and things of that sort. 

So, the education is important. Do you remember 
how much dough you had to put into your Youthful program? 

MR. PRESLEY: It's fairly new, just this fiscal 
year. I don't think there's any added this fiscal year. 

But you're going to have to add some educational 
instructors, because it's amazing how successful that was. 
Right away, these wards started wanting to go to school because 
they know that if you don't get a high school diploma, they 
can't be recommended for parole. And that's the way it was 
enforced. The Youth Authority would not recommend that they 
appear before the Youthful Offender Parole Board unless they had 
a high school diploma. 

I think that's going to be a very successful 
program. It will take some additional resources down the line. 

Now in terms of Corrections, that's a big area 
that needs expansion, is in the education system. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: My brother taught almost 20 
years at San Quentin, sometimes in a classroom, sometime 



34 

one-on-one in the hallway. 

And have you either given some thought, or 
figured out whether it worked, to almost have within the prison 
mentoring type programs where you do have the cons who, maybe 
they don't even have degrees, but they're pretty intelligent and 
well read, and whether they get, if there is anything like it 
any more, good time credits or something? But they get some 
kind of benefit out of teaching or tutoring the other inmates? 

MR. PRESLEY: That's an idea that has been around 
for a while. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Ever been implemented; do you 
know? 

MR. PRESLEY: It is on a very limited basis. I 
think it has a lot of potential. 

If you get one that's a little more educated, and 
he can — reading is a big one. Get someone to teach someone 
else to read, and then they would get credits, time off credits 
as an incentive to do that. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: I think some of them might 
even do it, depending, just give them something to do, too. 

What about, just the last one, on the drug 
stuff? I remember asking — I don't know remember who, I don't 
think it was Gomez, someone else, maybe even before Gomez — but 
it was like they said, we don't have the money or something for 
some of the drug programs. Then they were complaining they 
didn't even have the space for an AA meeting, which they could 
almost do in a cell. I mean, if the weather's good, they could 
do them out in the yard. 



35 

And I think because of the budgetary problems 
that it's very important to utilize every possible tool where we 
can do it on the cheap, as well as try to get the funding. 

I think I'm very enthused with your appointment 
to this, because clearly, except for maybe myself and 
Vasconcellos, I think you had the record of being the toughest 
on crime in the Capitol. 

[Laughter. ] 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: But seriously, you understood 
that there were a lot things that had to be done, unless you're 
just going to throw people a warehouse. And I think with your 
reputation in law enforcement, with the type of legislation you 
carried in the crime area over the years, that when you're able 
to suggest different approaches in the prisons, and how to try 
to stop this recidivism, that I think it'll carry great 
weight. 

Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. 

First of all, I'm glad that you're from the 
Inland Empire and not just from Pacheco's area, because a lot of 
us realize the outstanding work that's you done, both in the 
Inland Empire and the State of California. 

In relating to the question on drugs, do you have 
any plans or thoughts in dealing with access for illegal 
substance? That seems to be a problem that has occurred and 
occurred over the years. 

MR. PRESLEY: Yes, there's quite a program that's 
being put in place to deal with that. I forget what they call 



36 

it. There's something like x-ray equipment. There's some new 
equipment that's become available. And that's being implemented 
and will be implemented further as we move along. 

It's called Secure One Thousand. It's a 
computerized image thing. That, I think, will go a long way. 

There's all kinds of searches and things that 
take place. 

Senator Burton was referring to drug treatment. 
I think if we can get into more drug treatment, as I certainly 
intend to try to do, that will help in terms of interdiction as 
well to get people treated. 

So, with the new equipment and new programs that 
are in effect, I think you're going to see that improve over the 
next year or two. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: One last thing on that. The 
press reports that have been unsubstantiated, but they've 
alleged that prison employees bring as many in as do visitors 
because they're not subject to search or whatever it is. 

How can you, if without making people work as 
second-class citizens, either impress upon them or let them know 
that that's something that isn't going to be tolerated, and that 
that's a real problem? 

Again, these are unsubstantiated press reports, 
but I keep getting letters from constituents all the time, you 
know, claiming that as opposed to this. Again, I don't know, 
you can't stop drugs anywhere, so you probably can't stop them 
in prisons. 



37 

MR. PRESLEY: I don't think, Senator, that I 
would put employees in the same category. I think a lot less 
comes through there, but there is some. A great deal of it 
comes through visiting, when people come and visit the 
inmates. 

One of the ways to do what you say in terms of 
employees is just to be very tough on them, and let them know 
that you're going to be very tough on it. And if they do get 
caught, there is going to be some searching. And if they do get 
caught, they're going to be fully prosecuted for doing that. 
That's just a terrible thing for a correctional officer. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: How does a visitor smuggle 
them in? They look at purses; they look at the packages. And I 
would think also that there would even almost be like a 
profile. In other words, you know who the visitors are 
visiting, or something like that. I mean, it would seem that 
that would be not a cinch, but a fairly easy thing to crack 
down, unless they want to get into, like, smuggle them in from 
Marseilles? 

MR. PRESLEY: That's why I say this new equipment 
is going to be very — because it's like an X-ray. 

And I know what Senator Baca's referring to. 
It's the cavities of the body that this is brought in, and this 
will get to that problem. I think this hold tremendous promise 
for that in that area. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Witnesses in support briefly. 

MR. QUIMBY: Mr. Chairman and Members of 
the Senate Rules Committee — 



38 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Are you here as an individual 
or on behalf of San Bernardino County Board of Supervisors? 

MR. QUIMBY: I have a memo from my Board asking 
me to come. It didn't say whether we liked him or not. It just 
said I had to show up. 

Senator Presley, the San Bernardino County Board 
of Supervisors is very excited and wonderful about this 
appointment, in spite of the fact that during the time he was 
Senator, he stole just about everything from our county. It's 
all gone. It's over in Riverside now. We still like him. I was 
told not to invite him to dinner for fear he'd steal the salt 
shaker off the table. 

But we think he'll be a fabulous appointment, 
Mr. Chairman. My Board just wanted to affectionately come and 
say we think he's a great appointment, and we certainly hope you 
can all support his tenure. 

John Quimby, middle initial P, Senior, County of 
San Bernardino. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: JPQ? 

MR. QUIMBY: My son, then I have a third, but I'm 
the oldest one. Not as old as him. 

MR. LOVELL: John Lovell, representing the 
California Police Chiefs Association, California Peace Officers 
Association. 

We've had a long ongoing relationship with 
Senator Presley, and we enthusiastically support his 
appointments . 

MR. PERRY: Mr. Chairman and Members, Randy Perry 



39 

with the Peace Officers Research Association of California. 

We fully support the appointment. We've worked 
with Senator Presley for many years. I think I put two decades. 
I didn't wants to embarrass him and raise his age in Committee, 
but it's more like four decades, also as a law enforcement 
officer. We fully support him. Thank you. 

MR. MABRY: Mr. Chairman Burton and Committee 
Members, my name is Roy Mabry, Association of Black Correctional 
Workers, State President. 

I have a long history with this Senator, my 
former district Senator. 

Senator Hughes, you asked a question earlier 
about the whistle-blowers. Back in the early '80s, we had a 
case of that down south. Senator Davis, Ayala, and our current 
Chairman of the Board of YACA, Mr. Presley, conducted some 
hearings. Some of those people went on to promote after they 
shared some of the things and some other things. And they're 
still working within the system. That was the first case that 
I've ever witnessed of that. 

And the complaints had been going on for years 
before he actually intervened and sort of set a different tone 
of professionalism during that stage that still exists. 

Also, Mr. Burton, you asked a question about how 
do drugs get in through visitors? They'll be strapped to babies 
from two weeks old to up to ten years old, in the shoes, in the 
mouth. A person will put it into a balloon, tie a string to his 
teeth and swallow during the exchanging of kissing. Almost 
anything you can name strapped to the bottom of a shoe. I've 



40 

actually witnessed and physically had on assist in arresting 
people for similar circumstances. So, there's thousands of 
ways . 

We have employees, which is a very minimal 
amount, that actually partake in that, but we have people who 
just overlook the law in every area of professions. Even some 
former Legislators are at some of our federal institutions that 
had some problems. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Let's not — . 
[ Laughter . ] 

MR. MABRY: All right. Anyway, I'm in complete 



support . 



not? 



CHAIRMAN BURTON: Do you want to help him or 



MR. MABRY: Yes. We support this confirmation. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: May the record reflect I 
think they're all finally out. One of them is even selling real 
estate. 

MR. MACOLA: Senator, I'm Stephen Macola. I'm 
here for the California Emergency Food Link. 

I've known Senator Presley for 3 years. He's a 
wonderful appointment, and I recommend on behalf of the Food 
Link his approval without any qualifications whatsoever. 

MR. SEARCY: Good afternoon. Senator and 
Committee Members. My name is Frank R. Searcy, President, 
Chicano Correctional Workers Association. 

Just for a moment I'd like to deviate from the 
agenda. And Senator Hughes, after many, many, many years, 



41 

probably since I was in high school, I took the jeans out of the 
closet, and I wore them yesterday also. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Did anyone attempt to rape you? 

MR. SEARCY: I didn't go out of the house. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Next. 
[Laughter. ] 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: I don't know what the CCPOA 
members really think this is all about, 

MR. SEARCY: Again, this is CCWA, and thank you 
again, and I'll be very brief. 

Our Association joins all the positive comments 
and thoughts and recommendations regarding the recommendations 
for Senator Hughes, and we join in that. Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Thank you. 

MR. CLARKE: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and 
Members. I'm Alan Clarke, and I represent the Chief Probation 
Officers of California. 

It's a pleasure personally to be here in support 
of Senator Presley, and urge you on behalf not only of my client 
but me personally, his acceptance as Secretary of Youth and 
Adult Corrections. 

MR. VOGTS: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and 
Senators. My name is Jim Vogts, representing Los Angeles County 
Professional Peace Officers Association. 

We, like some of you, have had the pleasure for a 
great many years to work with Senator Presley. We don't think 
there's a better man for the job. We're pleased and proud to 
support his appointment. Thank you. 



42 

MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members, 
I'm Jeff Thompson on behalf of the California Correctional Peace 
Officers Association. 

Our Association of some 27,000 peace officers is 
fully behind Senator Presley's nomination to this post as Agency 
Secretary. Since we've seen the various candidates since the 
early '80s come forward to assume the post, we can think of no 
better qualified person to assume the role. 

Bob Presley brings a wealth of experience, well 
versed in the policy debate surrounding the Department of 
Corrections and the Youth Authority. Some of the earliest work 
that we worked with him personally on had to do with training 
for the officers, which is still substandard. But now, since 
1983, when your bill first was — 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: I remember the speech he gave 
on that. 

MR. THOMPSON: Now he's in position to finally 
get this thing implemented. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Witnesses in opposition? 

Moved by Senator Baca. Call the roll. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Baca Aye. Senator Hughes. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Hughes Aye. Senator Knight. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Knight Aye. Senator Lewis. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Aye. 



very much. 



43 

SECRETARY WEBB: Lewis Aye. Senator Burton. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Burton Aye. Five to zero. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Congratulations, Bob. 

MR. PRESLEY: Mr. Chairman and Members, thank you 

[Thereupon this portion of the 
Senate Rules Committee hearing was 
terminated at approximately 2:43 P.M.] 
— ooOoo — 



44 
CERTIFICATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER 

I, EVELYN J. MIZAK, a Shorthand Reporter of the State 
of California, do hereby certify: 

That I am a disinterested person herein; that the 
foregoing transcript of the Senate Rules Committee hearing was 
reported verbatim in shorthand by me, Evelyn J. Mizak, and 
thereafter transcribed into typewriting. 

I further certify that I am not of counsel or 
attorney for any of the parties to said hearing, nor in any way 
interested in the outcome of said hearing. 

/7 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this 
day of K ••yig^xi-<^<-^ac.>L..tX- / 1999. 






^YN y, MIZi _^ 
Shorthand Reporter 



45 



Statement by Grantland 
Johnson to the California State 
Senate Rules Committee 



Wednesdayi Febraary 17, 1999 



2/IZ/99 oonfimLvpci 



>2yZ0-d t7S90 t^9 916 ADN39b BabdHaPl ? HllUaH SI :ET 666T-ST-a3d 



46 



Senator Burton and Members thank you for the opportunity to discuss my short and 
long term goals for the Health and Human Services Agency over the next four years. 

Good health lies at the heart of the state's v^il-being. Health and productive 
individuals, families, and communities are the very foundation of the state's security 
and prosperity. A healthy workforce is more productive; a healthy student body is 
ready to learn; and a healthy people is able to build a better society. In this regard, I 
view health as **a state of well-being and the capability to function in the face of 
changing circumstances." Thus, health is a positive concept that emphasizes social 
and personal resources as well as physical capabilities. This view of health also 
underscores the important contributions to health that are made outside the formal 
medical care and public health systems. Individual behavior, education, equality of 
opportunity, social and physical surroundings, the economy, and access to health care 
are all elements crucial to health, and therefore offer opportunities to promote good 
health. 

The California Health and Human Services Agency will face a myriad of challenges 
over the next four years and beyond. However, few challenges facing the State of 
California compare to the essential task of reforming our health care system to ensure 
that Califomians have accessible, quality health care. The number of uninsured non- 
elderly Califomians has increased to more than 7 million and is growing at the rate of 
50,000 per month. The uninsured are predominantly low- and moderate-income 
working families and individuals who do not qualify for government sponsored health 
insurance, who work for employers who do not offer coverage, or who can not afford 
the employee share of premiums. The Agency has been tasked by Governor Davis to 
develop strategies to protect and improve the health of California residents. Our first 
phority is to Identify strategies to extend coverage to additional children. 

In addition, there is a crisis of confidence among many Califomians insured by 
managed care plans. Governor Davis has tasked Secretary Of Business, 
Trartsformation and Housing and Health and Human Services Agency to prepare 
options for more effective regulation of the managed care industry. 

In a California Health and Human Sen^ices Agency manages an array of programs that 
aim to ameliorate disparities in health status and access to health services and 
increase opportunities for individuals to work and lead productive lives. Many of these 
programs support basic and applied science, development of knowledge and its 
application, public health, and child and adolescent development; foster economic self- 
sufficiency and help working families; and finance health and social services. In all of 
these, the Agency should seek to close the gaps in health status and improve 
economic opportunities. 

2/12/99 oonCnn.wpd 



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'i I 



170 "d IdiOl 



The California Health and Human Services Agency's ongoing management of its 
programs vy^ll be guided by certain core values: 

To deliver results that are satisfactory and meaningful both to the people and 
communities that sr& directly served by the Agency's programs, and to the 
California people who pay for these programs. 

To be an accountable steward of the Agency's programs and enhance the 
efficiency and quality of the services provided to its customers. 

To protect against discrimination in the provision of health and human services. 

To focus consistently on the prevention of health and social problems. 

To create new forms of collaboration in regulation, research, service delivery, 
and management. 

To maintain a work environment that encourages captivity, diversity, innovation, 
teamwork, and highest ethical standards. 

The Agency will measure its success against the yardstick of steady, broad-based 
improvements in the physical and mental health and economic weH-t>eing of 
individuals, families, and communities throughout the state. In order to achieve 
improvements in the state's health and strengthen the social and economic fabric, the 
Agency will form partnerships of many kinds — with local and tribal governments, 
academic institutions, business groups, nonprofit and volunteer organizations, and 
faith-t)ased organizations. 

Thank you for the opportunity to share this brief overview. 



2/12/99 ooiiiirm.w|)d 



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A>l3Elb BiWJnan -8 HilbGH 



ST :£T 666T-ST-a3d 



365-R 

Additional copies of this publication may be purchased for $4.00 per copy 
(includes shipping and handling) plus current California sales tax. 

Senate Publications 

1020 N Street, Room B-53 

Sacramento, CA 95814 

(916)327-2155 

Make checks payable to SENATE RULES COMMITTEE. 
Please include Stock Number 365-R when ordering. 



LSoo 


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CA 



vrc 



•^HEARING 

SENATy^ULES COMMITTEE 

STATE OF CALIFORNIA 




DOCUMENTS DEPT. 

MAR - 8 1999 

SAN FRANCISCO 
PUBLIC LIBRARY 



STATE CAPITOL 

ROOM 113 

SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA 

WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 6, 1999 
9:32 A.M. 



364-R 



SENATE RULES COMMITTEE 
STATE OF CALIFORNIA 



HEARING 



STATE CAPITOL 

ROOM 113 

SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA 



WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 6, 1999 
9:32 A.M. 



Reported by: 



Evelyn J. Mizak 
Shorthand Reporter 



APPEARANCES 

MEMBERS PRESENT 

SENATOR JOHN BURTON, Chair 

SENATOR JOHN LEWIS, Vice Chair 

SENATOR JOE BACA 

SENATOR TERESA HUGHES 

SENATOR WILLIAM KNIGHT 

STAFF PRESENT 

GREG SCHMIDT, Executive Officer 

PAT WEBB, Committee Secretary 

NETTIE SABELHAUS, Consultant on Governor's Appointments 

WADE TEASDALE, Consultant to SENATOR LEWIS 

FELICE TANENBAUM, Consultant to SENATOR HUGHES 

ANDY PUGNO, Consultant to SENATOR KNIGHT 

ALSO PRESENT 

DIANA K. BUTLER, Warden 

California State Prison, Chuckawalla 

ROY MABRY, State President 

Association of Black Correctional Workers 

FRANK R. SEARCY, President 

Chicano Correctional Workers Association 

JOHN E. FLAHARTY, Chapter President 

Chuckawalla State Prison Chapter 

California Correctional Peace Officers Association 

BARBARA CAYENNE BIRD, President 
UNION 

THOMAS L. CAREY, Warden 

California Correctional Institution, Tehachapi 



Ill 



MIKE JIMENEZ, Executive Vice President 

California Correctional Peace Officers Association 

YUSUF ISLAM, Muslim Chaplin 

California Correctional Institution, Tehachapi 

JOHN H. E. ROMBOUTS, Mayor 
City of Tehachapi 

LAWRENCE F. SMALL, Warden 
California State Prison, Calipatria 

LANCE CORCORAN, Vice President 

California Correctional Peace Officers Association 

JOHN S. MITCHELL 

Calipatria State Prison Employees Association 

JESSE BOYAR 
UNION 



IV 
INDEX 

Page 
Proceedings 1 

Governor's Appointees; 

DIANA K. BUTLER, Warden 

California State Prison, Chuckawalla 1 

Background and Experience 1 

Questions by CHAIRMAN BURTON re: 

Programs Dealing with Recidivism 2 

Trades Taught 2 

Pre-Release Program 3 

Recidivism Percentage among Those Inmates 
Who Did Not Participate 4 

Literacy Program 5 

Questions by SENATOR HUGHES re: 

Evaluation of Inmate's Level of 

Literacy after Incarceration 6 

Motivations for Inmates to Enter 

Programs 6 

Rewards for Inmates Who Tutor Others 7 

Apathetic and/or Depressed Inmates 7 

Questions by SENATOR LEWIS re: 

Percentage of Drug-Relation Incarcerations 

And Violent vs . Nonviolent 9 

Questions by CHAIRMAN BURTON re: 

Indeterminate Life Sentence Inmates 10 



Questions by SENATOR LEWIS re: 

Percentage of Inmates Incarcerated 

Specifically for Drug-Related Crimes 10 

Questions by SENATOR BACA re: 

Recommendations to Department to Reduce 

Inmate Access to Illegal Substances 11 

Requests for Additional Educational 

Training Programs 12 

Effect on Inmate Conduct of New Law Limiting 
Good Time Credits 12 

Questions by SENATOR KNIGHT re: 

Reasonableness of Providing Education to 
Hardened Criminals 14 

Motion to Confirm 15 

Witnesses in Support: 

ROY MABRY, State President 

Association of Black Correctional Workers 15 

FRANK R. SEARCY, President 

Chicano Correctional Workers Association 16 

JOHN E. FLAHARTY, Chapter President 

California Correctional Peace Officers Association ... 17 

Witness with Concerns: 

BARBARA CAYENNE BIRD, President 

UNION 18 

Questions by SENATOR HUGHES re: 

Response to Criticism of Medical 

Responses 20 

Questions by SENATOR LEWIS re: 

Medical Personnel on Staff 21 



VI 



Questions by CHAIRMAN BURTON re: 

Medical Personnel 21 

Questions by SENATOR KNIGHT re: 

Responsibility for Medical Concerns 22 

Ultimate Decision Making 23 

Questions by CHAIRMAN BURTON re: 

Responsibilities of Health Care Manager 23 

Committee Action 24 

THOMAS L. CAREY, Warden 

California Correctional Institution, Tehachapi 24 

Background and Experience 24 

Questions by SENATOR LEWIS re: 

Challenges Presented by Overcrowding 25 

Percentage of Inmates That Are Violent 

Vs. Nonviolent, and Drug-Related 

Incarcerations 26 

Questions by SENATOR KNIGHT re: 

Design Capacity vs. Current Capacity 28 

Types of Cells 28 

Questions by SENATOR BACA re: 

Literacy Programs 29 

Educational and Training Opportunities 30 

Recommendations to Department to Reduce 

Illegal Substances in Institution 31 

Inmates' Conduct Resulting from Change in 

Law for Good Time Credits 32 



VI 1 

Questions by SENATOR KNIGHT re: 

Defining Hardened Criminals to Ensure 
Educational Funds Won' t Be Expended 33 

Questions by CHAIRMAN BURTON re: 

Pre-Release Programs 34 

Ability of ex-Felons to Obtain Licensure 

In Trades 36 

Questions by SENATOR HUGHES re: 

Medical Services 36 

Biggest Frustration 38 

Rehabilitation 38 

Witnesses in Support: 

MIKE JIMENEZ, Executive Vice President 

California Correctional Peace Officers Association ... 39 

Questions of MR. CAREY by CHAIRMAN BURTON re: 

Older Inmates 40 

Possibility of Alternatives to 
Incarceration for Geriatric Inmates 41 

ROY MABRY, State President 

Association of Black Correctional Workers 41 

YUSUF ISLAM, Muslim Chaplain 

California Correctional Institution, Tehachapi 41 

FRANK R. SEARCY, President 

Chicano Correctional Workers Association 43 

JOHN ROMBOUTS, Mayor 

City of Tehachapi 44 



Vlll 



Witness in Opposition: 

BARBARA CAYENNE BIRD, President 

UNION 4 6 

Questions by SENATOR LEWIS re: 

Percentage of Complaints that 

Occurred during MR. CAREY' s Watch 4 8 

Referral of Criminal Conduct 

To Appropriate Authorities 49 

Request by SENATOR HUGHES to Examine Medical 

Services Complaints 49 

Response by MR. CAREY 50 

Questions by CHAIRMAN BURTON re: 

Protection of Inmate's Anonymity When 

Lodging Complaints 50 

Questions by SENATOR BACA re: 

Recommended Policy Changes 52 

Motion to Confirm 53 

Committee Action 53 

LAWRENCE F. SMALL, Warden 

California State Prison, Calipatria 53 

Background and Experience 54 

Questions by SENATOR LEWIS re: 

Medical Care Offered 55 

Pre-Release Program 56 

Percentage of Inmates with Substance 

Abuse Problems 58 



IX 



15 
16 



18 
19 
20 
21 

22 
23 
24 



26 

27 
28 



Questions by SENATOR HUGHES re: 

Greatest Frustration 59 

Gang Influence 59 

Placement of Gang Members 60 

Denial of Medical Services 61 

Knowledge of Inmate' s Physical Condition 62 

Segregation of AIDS Patients 62 



g Questions by CHAIRMAN BURTON re: 

10 Availability of New Medicines for HIV and 

AIDS Inmates 62 

11 

j^ Questions by SENATOR HUGHES re: 

13 Religious Clerical Force 63 

14 Questions by SENATOR BACA re: 



Recommendations for Dealing and Coping 

With Overcrowding 63 



17 Work to Reduce Gang Tension 

In Population 65 



Programs to Improve Skills and Literacy 66 

Effect on Imates of Good Time Credits 

Change in Law 67 

Recommended Policy Changes 67 

Questions by SENATOR KNIGHT re: 

Best Rehabilitator Is Age 68 



25 Effect of Recent Investigations and 

Hearings on Wardens 69 



Referral of Drug Charges to D.A 70 

Visitors Rules and Regulations Handbook 70 



Witnesses in Support; 

LANCE CORCORAN, Vice President 

California Correctional Peace Officers Association ... 72 

ROY MABRY, State President 

Association of Black Correctional Workers 74 

FRANK R. SEARCY, President 

Chicano Correctional Workers Association 75 

JOHN S. MITCHELL, Food Manager, Calipatria 

Calipatria State Prison Employees Association 77 

Witnesses in Opposition: 

BARBARA CAYENNE BIRD, President 

UNION 77 

Questions by SENATOR LEWIS re: 

Details of Son' s Conviction 82 

Autopsy Report on Inmate' s Death 83 

Questions of MR. SMALL by SENATOR LEWIS re: 

Transferral of Witness' s Son 83 

Motion to Confirm 85 

Committee Action 86 

Additional Witness in Opposition; 

JESSE BOYAR 

UNION 86 

Termination of Proceedings 88 

Certificate of Reporter 89 



P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 
— ooOoo — 
CHAIRMAN BURTON: We have today three gubernatorial 
appointees. The first gubernatorial appointee is Diana Butler, 
Warden, Cal State Chuckawalla. 

MS. BUTLER: Senator Burton, Senate Rules 
Committee, people present, good morning. Thank you for the 
opportunity to come before you as the Warden appointee of 
Chuckawalla Valley State Prison and present my qualifications. 

My professional experience includes serving the 
Department of Corrections for over 2 years, working in both the 
custody area and ancillary positions. I've worked at five 
different institutions, covering all levels of inmate custody, 
from camp inmates to those housed in the Security Housing Units. 

I was also assigned as the Chief of 
Classification Services in Central Office, a major area in 
Headquarters, where I interacted with all the institutions, 
different departments, the Board of Prison Terms, and outside 
interests. 

My formal schooling includes a Bachelor's of Arts 
Degree from the University of Michigan, and a Master's of 
Education from the University of Nevada in Reno. My focus 
includes maintaining the public safety in an efficient manner, 
making Chuckawalla Valley State Prison a meaningful and safe 
workplace for employees, a beneficial and safe place for inmates 
to serve their sentences, and a valuable neighbor serving the 
community. 

I wish to acknowledge my fine staff at 



Chuckawalla Valley State Prison who just recently rededicated 
the prison, celebrating ten years of excellence; our community 
neighbors who are partners in many useful projects; my 
supportive supervisors and friends; and especially my wonderful 
family for all their assistance. 

Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: What kinds of programs, if 
any, do you have at that prison that would deal with the 
problems of recidivisim, which California seems to have the 
highest rate in the nation? 

MS. BUTLER: We have several programs dealing 
with recidivism. We have the education programs which cover the 
literacy programs. We focus in on the inmates who are under 21 
and give them a special — we have a special program focusing in 
on them. We have a special program focusing in the education 
area for inmates that are under the age of 25, and we have the 
literacy program, besides the adult basic education programs, 
which covers basically nonreading through the twelfth grade. 

We also have English as a second language to 
assist these that need help in that area. 

We have several voc. programs to give the inmates 
a trade, and we have four or five on each facility, and we have 
four facilities. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: What trades do you teach? 

MS. BUTLER: Well, there's — we have about 16 
different ones. We have automotive, welding, upholstery, shoe 
repair. We have the computer ones. We have the painting ones 
for both the cars and the regular painting ones. Basically any 



trade that they would want. 

We have also have a Trade Advisory Committee 
which is very active, and so we reach out into the actual 
employers and try to bridge that gap. 

And we also have — to try to avert recidivism, 
we have what we call a pre-release class, and we try to give the 
students in that class the tools they need just prior to 
paroling. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: How prior? 

MS. BUTLER: Well, they're supposed to be within 
90 days of paroling. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: So, what would be the length of 
that course? 

MS. BUTLER: Currently, the course is only three 
weeks, but we just received five new positions, and we are going 
to take those positions and create a three-month course, and 
that is with the assistance of the major Headquarters' Education 
Department that has been funded. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Everybody who is scheduled for 
release is put in these classes? 

MS. BUTLER: Currently it is a voluntary program, 
but we are changing it to make it mandatory, so that when they 
do release, that They will have this experience. My staff and I 
have personally gone down to the classes and talked to the 
inmates that are graduating from those classes. They really 
like the program. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: When it's voluntary, do you 
have any, just ball park, idea of the percentages who 



volunteered to go into it as opposed to those who decided not? 

MS. BUTLER: We had a class capacity of 
approximately 30, and everytime we had the class we had three 
teachers, and they were always filled. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: So, did anybody who wanted to 
get in, not get in? 

MS. BUTLER: No. Anyone who wanted to get in 
would get in. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: If you don't have it now, give 
it to us later — 

MS. BUTLER: Certainly. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: But what percentage of those 
who were going out participated in the, say, readjustment 
program? What percentage didn't? And then, if there was any 
way, and Mike, maybe you could do that, but check those who went 
into the program, the recidivism rates for those who were in the 
readjustment program and those who weren't to see whether they 
even which I assume they probably would. I think that would be 
helpful if you could get us that information. In working with 
the Department, they could probably figure out which ones worked 
and which didn't. 

MS. BUTLER: We also have one other position that 
we have just been granted to have, and that is a person that is 
going to go out and interact with the community and try to seek 
jobs. So, that person will be on the road a lot, so he will 
have a face-to-face contact with the employers, and take the 
inmates that will have these skills and try to merge or join 
them. 



CHAIRMAN BURTON: That's assuming that they're 
going to go to work in communities close to the prison; right? 

MS. BUTLER: No. The person will be going into 
the areas where the inmates will be paroling to. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Okay. 

On the literacy, anybody that wants to or has to, 
is there room or not room? 

MS. BUTLER: There is room in the classroom. And 
we also have a program for the inmates, and it's kind of like 
Dr. Lawbucks, you know, each one teach one. So, we have inmates 
on each program unit, and they assist the inmates in learning in 
addition to the structured programs. And the inmates themselves 
find they like to help their fellow inmate in learning, so we 
have a very active literacy program. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: So, you have enough 
instructors, you have enough instructional material, and you 
have enough classrooms for any of the students that need 
literacy training? 

MS. BUTLER: Well, I would say that anyone who 
wants to would be put into the program at least within two 
months, but we can always, you know, use more teachers. We do 
have a waiting list. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: How long's the waiting list? 

MS. BUTLER: We have a waiting list that is 
probably a couple months long. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Hughes. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Good morning. I'd like to find 
out from you, after an inmate is incarcerated, how soon after 



their incarceration do you evaluate their level of literacy? 

MS. BUTLER: The way we have it structured at 
Chuckawalla, that's part of what we call the orientation 
process, and the orientation process takes place within the 
first ten days. That is supposed to have occurred prior to the 
initial classification of the inmate, where the inmate goes in 
and we review his factors. And then we try to, in that 
committee, give him a program that will best fit his needs. 

SENATOR HUGHES: How long does it take after the 
orientation process, after the ten days, for them to get into a 
program? I heard you say that some of them go voluntarily; 
others don't. 

What kind of motivational things do you do to 
stimulate them to make them anxious to get in? 

MS. BUTLER: I would say that most inmates do 
want to program because we have privileges, and also a lot of 
them will get a small amount of money. 

The part that was voluntary and involuntary was 
the pre-release program. But I would say that we only have 
probably six at my institution that are not programming per 
their own decision. 

And depending on what program they wish to go 
into would depend on how long it takes to get in there. Some of 
the trades take a little bit longer to complete, so those 
inmates that are in there have to have time to, you know, 
complete that trade. So, what the inmate will do is, he will 
get a different kind of job, but he will still be on the trade 
waiting list. So, we get them programming and working, and we 



try to instill in them good work habits. And then, if they have 
a specific place that they want to zero in on, then we make sure 
that they are on that waiting list. 

SENATOR HUGHES: I'm really pleased and excited 
to hear about the tutoring type program that you have. What 
kinds of rewards do you have to those other inmates who 
volunteer to be the tutors? 

MS. BUTLER: Our Supervisor of Education is very 
pro-active in the reward system. I believe our management staff 
is, too. We give them Certificates of Appreciation. And we 
also have what we call chronos, which is information about the 
inmate, and we write them chronos, acknowledging their 
participation and their dedication to this task. 

SENATOR HUGHES: I'm sure that a lot of the 
motivation and everything depends upon the personality of the 
inmate, and particularly crimes for which they're incarcerated. 

What happens when you have an inmate who is very 
apathetic and depressed within the ten-day period. Do you do 
referrals for counseling, and how long does that counseling 
program go on, and what are your expectations for them to get 
their acts together and get into the stream? 

MS. BUTLER: You mentioned the word depression, 
and that raises a flag to us because we have a very assertive 
mental health program. And our staff have been trained in depth 
how to recognize inmates that are depressed because sometimes 
depression goes to negative behavior, possibly suicide. And so, 
our staff have been trained in depth in that area. 

Our staff have referred inmates that they feel 



8 

have been depressed, and the medical department has, you know, 
over taken their care. And so, that would be done anytime, and 
especially during the first ten days. 

However, if it's just a normal, gee, I'm 
apathetic, or whatever, we do have our counselors. We do have a 
lot of volunteers here that are very concerned about the 
inmates' welfare, and we have a lot of religious volunteers, and 
they come all the way out to Blythe. They're a very dedicated 
group. And I think they feel that they want to help turn lives 
around. 

And we don't have a counseling program there such 
as other institutions may. If an inmate needs that in-depth 
kind of counseling, then the medical department will come to us 
as the transfer people and say, this person really needs to go 
to another institution where he will receive the service that he 
needs. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Do you have to advertise to the 
inmates that they can have the benefit of the tutorial services, 
and then, once you assign someone, do the other inmates 
volunteer to tutor certain individuals, or does your operation 
place them? 

I'm wondering about personalities, you know. How 
do you really work that out? • It seems very intriguing. 

MS. BUTLER: Well, we have a teacher that is over 
that. She is does the main tying into. 

But we feel that in a learning situation, it 
should be beneficial, and so we don't force people to work 
together if it's not going to work. We try to have situations 



where you have the optimum learning situation, and so they do 
try to make personalities, you know, fit. 

But the inmates themselves, they know they're in 
there, and they want to have positive things about their lives. 
So, they do look for areas that they can have a positive, you 
know, input. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Sounds like a very exciting 
program. 

MS. BUTLER: Thank you. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Lewis. 

SENATOR LEWIS: I was wondering if you could 
just give me an idea in terms of your present population, what 
percentage of the population at Chuckawalla is there for drug 
related crimes, and also for violent versus nonviolent? 

MS. BUTLER: The nonviolent at Chuckawalla is 
probably lower than at most institutions. We have a population 
of approximately 3 600. Of those, approximately 250 to 270 are 
lifers. So, if you're a lifer, that usually implies, you know, 
a violent crime. 

But I would say at the actual Chuckawalla, the 
violent inmates are much lower because it is a Level Two 
institution. I would have to say probably ten to fifteen 
percent. I would say it would be lower than normal. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Ten to fifteen percent 
nonviolent? 

MS. BUTLER: Are violent. 

Well, it depends what you classify as violent. 



10 

We have a lot of drug abuse inmates, you know, that are there 
for drug crimes. 

I do not have that actual profile of the actual 
violent ones. But we look at them as lifers, so those would be 
the violent ones. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Lifer like life without, or 20 
to life, or what? 

MS. BUTLER: The ones we would have would be like 
15 to life, or 25 to life. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: So, indeterminate life 
sentence. 

MS. BUTLER: Yes, and they have to have had at 
least five years within the system prior to coming to a Level 
Two. And those inmates that are life without possibility of 
parole are not allowed to come to a Level Two. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: So, yours would all be 
indeterminate life. 

MS. BUTLER: Yes. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Any feel on what percentage of 
your prison population is there just specifically for drug 
related crimes with no other overlying — 

MS. BUTLER: I don't have the actual statistics, 
but just going through files, I would say 50 to 60 percent, if 
not more, are drug. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Baca, then Senator 
Knight. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you. Senator. 

One of the questions, following along the same 



11 

lines, what recommendations would you make to the Department to 
reduce inmate access to illegal substance, since you mentioned 
that was a problem? 

MS. BUTLER: Well, I think we need to give them 
programs to give them alternatives. And the ultimate choice of 
whether an inmate is going to use drugs or not is his own 
decision, so I feel that if the inmate is not going to use the 
drugs, then there will not be a need to bring them in. 

We do have programs. Narcotics Anonymous, and it 
used to be joined with Alcoholics Anonymous. We have now 
separated those out, and we are zeroing in on narcotic aversion, 
and Say No to Drugs. We have a very active program on Saying No 
to Drugs. 

As far as getting them into the institution, we 
have a very active screening system where the packages come in, 
and we have like a florescope so we look at the packages when 
they come in. 

But the people that want to send them in are very 
creative, and we have like packaging that looks like it's right 
from the vendor, but it has actually been repackaged. So, we 
have trained our staff on how to do that. 

We also have visiting program where we feel that 
the visitors should be there, you know, to have a positive 
influence on the inmates. And if they don't have a positive 
influence, then we don't allow them to come in if we find that 
they are bringing in some. 

SENATOR BACA: Have you requested for additional 
educational training programs, as we were talking about it 



12 

earlier? Have you made any requests? 

MS. BUTLER: We requested six positions, and we 
got six positions. One of those is going to be another program 
for carpentry for another on voc. program. Some of those are 
going to be for the pre-release program that I described. And 
then another one will be for the academic, yes. 

SENATOR BACA: One other question that I have. 
The law has changed in the amount of good credits that inmates 
may earn. The law now gives fewer credits than in the past so 
that the inmates don't get out too early. 

Have you noticed any difference in the prisoners' 
conducts as a result of changing the law? 

MS. BUTLER: Yes, I have. I know that this is of 
concern to them. 

When they do some activity, they are very 
cognizant that it will have a consequence if they are found 
guilty of this. And so, this is in uppermost part of their 
minds. 

SENATOR BACA: Is it positive or negative? 

MS. BUTLER: I believe it's positive in that it 
is in the utmost part of their mind, so it may help them in 
their decision making. And if they want to go ahead and do the 
crime, then they know that there will be that consequence. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: I think the question was, they 
reduced the good time credit. If you behaved yourself, you 
still wouldn't get out on time, or you'd get out later thank you 
would have under the old one-for-one deal. 

MS. BUTLER: They only get 15 percent off as 



13 

opposed to 50 percent? 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Right. 

MS. BUTLER: That has had an impact as far as our 
ability to kind of hold, you know, the sword over their heads. 

But I think at a Level Two, I probably am not 
seeing this as much as maybe a Level Three or a Level Four. 
When you're a Level Two inmate, as indicated earlier, we do have 
a little less violent individual. Or, if he has been violent in 
the past, he now has proven that he can spend his life without 
doing a lot of violence. 

So, we do have some inmates there, and in fact, 
we were looking at a case, and we needed some mental health 
assistance, so we were looking at what could we do to assist 
this inmate. And we found that we had very little options as 
far as assisting him because he was one of those 85 percenters. 

So, I think that at a Level Two, I don't feel 
I've seen the impact that maybe we do at a Level Three or Four. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Knight. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Thank you. Senator Burton. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: You're welcome. Senator 
Knight. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: We have a little thing going 
here. You'll have to bear with us. 

I'm concerned about the inmates and their 
education, and the worthwhileness of the education. Certainly I 
am supportive and believe it's in our best interest to educate 
the inmates, prepare them for meaningful employment, accepting 



14 

responsibility once they're released into society. 

But by the same token, I know that there are 
hardened criminals, professional criminals as we would suggest, 
and to that end, I don't believe it's worthwhile providing any 
education for those people who are definitely criminals, who 
have espoused to being criminals, and who've professed to 
continuing along those professional lines even after they get 
out. 

I'm sure that you know who those people are 
within the system. 

Is it reasonable to provide and spend the dollars 
in trying to educate those people who are not going to accept 
it, are not going to utilize it, and they've told you that 
they're going to be criminals from now on? 

MS. BUTLER: Well, I used to be an old school 
teacher. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: You're still a school teacher. 

MS. BUTLER: I'm still a school teacher, I must 
admit. School teachers never give up. 

I don't know if we have any crystal ball that 
says this person will always be a criminal. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: I'm asking, do you screen the 
people to find out, and screen them and ask them, for example, 
as well as trying to evaluate the ability or the capability for 
them to accept and utilize the education? 

MS. BUTLER: We most definitely do we screen 
them. We screen them within the first 10 days, 10 to 14 days, 
as I said, but we continue to work with them. We see them at 



15 

least annually to discuss their program. If they have any kind 
of concerns, we bring them to committee. They have a counselor 
that is assigned to them forever. And those inmates that do not 
want to go into education, we have other positions that they can 
find jobs or program to get the privileges. 

So, do we force people to go into education? I 
would say no. We have enough people that want to take advantage 



of that. 



the roll. 



Very briefly. 



CHAIRMAN BURTON: Moved by Senator Lewis. Call 



I'm sorry. First of all, witnesses in support 



Why don't you also introduce your family. You 
forgot that, too; we're even. 

MS. BUTLER: I'm very proud to present my family: 
my husband, Jim Butler; my mother, Kathryn Briggs from Michigan. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Where in Michigan? 

MS. BUTLER: Farmington Hills, which is right 
outside of Detroit. 

My son, Peter Carlson, and his significant other, 
Laurie. 

MR. MABRY: Chairman Burton and the Rules 
Committee Members, my name is Roy Mabry. I'm the State 
President for the Association of Black Correctional Workers. 

First of all, I'd like to welcome your newest 
Rules Committee Member, Senator Baca, and also Ms. Sabelhaus as 
the appointments secretary. 

Today I'm here representing our Association for 



16 

complete, 100 percent support of confirmation of Warden Butler. 

I also brought my Senior Vice President, Ms. 
Jackson Gray, she'll just raise her hand; and also my Junior 
Vice President, Ms. Debra Dexter. 

So, to the Committee Members, we support 
confirmation 100 percent. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Thank you. 

MR. MABRY: Any questions? 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: No. 

MR. SEARCY: Good morning Senator Burton and 
Committee Members. 

I am Frank R. Searcy, President of the Chicane 
Correctional Workers Association. 

First of all, again, I'd also like to on behalf 
of the Association congratulate Mr. Baca and Ms. Sabelhaus for 
her appointment. 

Anything I would say at this point, ladies and 
gentlemen, would only confirm your positive administrative 
abilities that Ms. Butler has demonstrated today. Nevertheless, 
I'd like to share some things with you. 

One is that approximately two, three months ago, 
as Association President, I was receiving some information that 
was of mutual concern to Ms. Butler and to our Association. So, 
at that time, I decided to go and visit Ms. Butler. And I took 
one of my administrative assistants with me. 

We approached Ms. Butler. She very, very 
graciously took time from her busy schedule to listen to some of 
the concerns that were coming to my attention. We discussed 



17 

them. She responded. And I can say at this point that she has 
responded very appropriately, in a positive manner, to those 
concerns. I'd like to think by what I have heard that those 
matters of concern are being dealt with in a positive manner 
also. 

Again, I just want to repeat that her academic 
achievements as you have heard today, very, very well qualifies 
her, and I like that part about the teaching. Yes, she will 
always be a teacher, and she will always be teaching us also. 

Gentlemen and Ms. Hughes, we'd like to offer our 
endorsement and hope that you will see it also that Chuckawalla 
Valley State Prison deserves Ms. Butler. 

Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Any other support? 

MR. FLAHARTY: Good morning, Mr. Burton and 
Committee Members. I've been attached to the Chuckawalla Valley 
State Prison for 10 years, since it's been opened. 

I'm sorry. I'm John Flaharty, a correctional 
officer. Chapter President of the Blythe Chapter of the CCPOA. 

I've been attached there about ten years since 
we've opened. We've had six wardens set in the seat. Out of 
that six, we've had two wardens: one, Theo White in 1991; and 
now Diana Butler as the Warden. 

This chapter has probably had the best 
relationship with management in the ten years that we've been 
open. I've watched disciplinary action on both sides of the 
fence, whether it be supervisors or rank and file, and it's all 
been dispensed evenly and justly. 



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Ms. Butler is probably the only warden I've seen 
walk the yards on first watch, second watch, third watch; not 
only talk to staff, but mingle and talk with the convicts to 
find out the problems and try to solve the problems at this 
institution. 

I'm here on behalf of about 400 officers and 
about 60 supervisors to endorse Warden Butler. We urge an aye 
vote from the Committee. 

Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Any other in support? 

Any opposition? 

MS. BIRD: Hello. I'm Cayenne Bird. I'm a 
journalist and the Director of UNION, which is a prisoner family 
organization recently formed with about 4,000 members here in 
California. 

We're not actually objecting to Ms. Butler's 
appointment, though it is a form of objection, though, because 
there is a little negativity. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: You're objecting to the 
system? 

MS. BIRD: No. I have a wheel barrow full of 
complaints from prisons all over the state, and we actually have 
the least from Ms. Butler's administration. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: That's what I mean. 

MS. BIRD: But there are a few matters of serious 
concern that I would just like to briefly mention so that it 
goes on the record. 

In fact, she is the only one out of the three 



19 

here today that we do endorse. The other two we definitely do 
not endorse and have some very gross violations of humanity, and 
the law, and serious things that Ms. Sabelhaus has agreed to 
work with us in looking into these matters. 

But as far as this particular appointment, we are 
happy to say that we have the least complaints from this 
particular facility, and they almost all seem to be related to 
lack of medical services in emergencies, that sort of thing. 
The men are being treated as caged animals all over the state. 
Lack of even an emergency — a doctor being on the premises. 

Thirty-six hundred people is the same as a small 
city. Often the doctor is just not there. And there are no 
referrals to specialists. Animals in the zoo are treated better 
than our inmates. 

I'm a mother of an inmate. I have a number of 
families here today. We worked hard in the election. We put 
300 prisoner families out into the Gray Davis offices. We're 
optimistic of what's going to happen in the new administration, 
but we're a little skeptical at the same time. 

We would like to also have some racism 
accusations looked into out there. 

The normal thing that happens among the inmates. 
What you might consider business as usual means a lot more to a 
mother, and we're very much more sensitive to these things 
because these are our children, our husbands, our family members 
that have been taken for the industry of human bondage, which 
really is not a solution to crime. We're hoping that we in the 
UNION can sway the state toward more progressive viewpoint of 



20 

restorative justice, the way that Minnesota and Vermont, and 
some of the other states have already gone. We think that 
education, rehabilitation, prevention is a better focus than 
retributive justice. 

Anyway, we'd just like to say that about this 
particular appointment, that we are hoping the medical problems 
will be looked into. We really appreciate her approach as a 
teacher, and we do have the least amount of complaints on this 
particular prison. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Thank you. 

MS. BIRD: Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Call the roll. 

SENATOR HUGHES: If can I ask, could Ms. Butler 
respond to the criticism as the administrator of that 
institution on the medical end? Could you, please? 

MS. BUTLER: Whenever I hear any kind of medical 
concerns, I have them dealt with immediately. I have a very 
good relationship with the Chief Medical Officer or the Health 
Care Manager. And if they bring issues to me, I will look into 
them. 

However, the health care management is a system 
that is separate from the Warden. So, we don't have the 
authority over the medical. 

But whenever we become aware of any concerns, I 
do present it to the medical. And as far as I know, the medical 
has always responded immediately to any concerns that I have 
brought to them. 

So, if she has specific concerns, I would most 



21 

definitely like to look into them. 

SENATOR HUGHES: And will you be looking into 
them? 

MS. BUTLER: Yes, I will. 

SENATOR HUGHES: All right, that's all I wanted, 
was a commitment that you would look into them. 

MS. BUTLER: Oh, I certainly will. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Thank you. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Is there a full-time physician on 
staff? 

MS. BUTLER: We have five physicians, but they 
are not there 24 hours. But we do have medical staff on grounds 
24 hours. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Question. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: The health part is separate 
from the Warden. That's run directly by the Department of 
Corrections? 

MS. BUTLER: Yes. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: And you have five docs. You 
do not have a doctor on 24 hours. In other words, it's not a 
doctor there 24 hours. Are they close enough that they're on 
call, or what? 

MS. BUTLER: They're either on call, or we 
immediately take them to the local hospital which has the 
emergency room. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: What do you have there 24 
hours, like nurses in a clinic? 

MS. BUTLER: Yes, we have the nurses in the 



22 

clinic. We have ten rooms or ten man beds. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: And you have 24 hour, that 
type? 

MS. BUTLER: Yes, we have 2 4 hour service there; 
yes, we do. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Just a short question. 

If you're not responsible for the medical, who on 
site is responsible for the medical condition? 

MS. BUTLER: We have the Health Care Manager, and 
he is responsible for the medical care. 

But I wish to reiterate that we work very well 
together. If he sees any concerns in my area, he very freely 
brings them to me and vice-versa. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Are you considered, then, on a 
par from managerial standpoint with him? 

MS. BUTLER: As far as — 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Who has ultimate decision over 
what happens? 

MS. BUTLER: Well, it depends. We have to work 
together because I control like the transportation of inmates, 
but if he needs an inmate transferred, we have to work together, 
you know, to transfer the inmate. He makes a medical decision. 
If I get information that makes me believe that this is not 
good, then I have an avenue to make it go upstairs, if you will, 
and bring other people's attention to this. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: If you have a disagreement, it 
goes to the Director or the Secretary? 

MS. BUTLER: I believe there are more levels 



23 

before that, and we try to resolve it at the lowest level. But 
at this point, we have not had any disagreement. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: But if you do? 

MS. BUTLER: If we do, then I would take it to my 
supervisor, and he would take it to his supervisor and say, 
well, what is the Department's policy, because it would be more 
of a departmental policy that maybe we need a clarification on, 
because I do believe that he's trying to do the right thing. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: As long as we're into this, 
just a brief thing. 

What did you call the person? It sounds like a 
bureaucrat. 

MS. BUTLER: Health Care Manager. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: And that person's like on site 
in the prison? 

MS. BUTLER: Yes. He is a medical doctor, yes. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: He ' s a medical doctor in the 
prison, and he's responsible for the other four docs, the ten 
nurses, the orderlies, whatever? 

MS. BUTLER: Yes. He has hiring authority. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Be a nice issue for you to 
look at, Simon, the Public Safety Committee. 

Call the roll. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Baca Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Senator Hughes. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Aye. 



24 

SECRETARY WEBB: Hughes Aye. Senator Knight. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Knight Aye. Senator Lewis. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Lewis Aye. Senator Burton. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Burton Aye. Five to zero. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Congratulations, Warden. 

MS. BUTLER: Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Next, Thomas Carey, 
Correctional Institution, Tehachapi. 

MR. CAREY: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Senators, 
and guests. I am Tom Carey, the Warden at the California 
Correctional Institution in Tehachapi, California. 

I bring to this assignment many positive life and 
work experiences. I have been married to my wife, Tamsen, for 
34-and-a-half years, and we have raised five children. If I 
may, I would like to acknowledge my wife Tamsen and my son 
David, and my daughter Kathryn. Appreciate your being here. 

I've had the experience of earning my Bachelor's 
Degree from Cal. State Fullerton and returning to college some 
12 years later to earn my Master's Degree from Whittier College 
in 1977, Master's Degree in Education, while working full-time 
to support my family. 

I have had the experience of successfully working 
and promoting in a major corporation. Over the years, I have 
received the blessings from donating thousands of hours to those 
to whom I serve in my church activities. 



25 

I've had the opportunity to work at Patton State 
Hospital, San Quentin State Prison, Mule Creek State Prison. 
Served as the Chief of Training at the Richard A. McGee Training 
Center, Chief Deputy at Correctional Training Facility in 
Soledad, and presently am serving as the Warden at CCI. 

CCI is unique. It's the only male prison in 
California that has a reception center, and Levels One, Two, 
Three and Four. As we all know, the operations of a prison are 
becoming more and more complex. The demands made on a warden to 
provide leadership and direction during these demanding times is 
enormous. My background, coupled with my desire to continue to 
serve the citizens of the State of California, provide the 
strength that I need to lead CCI today and into the future. 

And at this time I would very much like to 
acknowledge the support that I have from my staff at CCI, and 
the direction that we're heading. 

Thank you. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Thank you. Warden. 

According to go our records, your institution is 
at 211 percent of capacity. What kind of special challenge does 
that create for you? 

MR. CAREY: That creates a challenge for us in 
providing ample work opportunity and educational opportunities. 
Of those that are qualified in my institution to attend either a 
work activity or an education program, we run at 97 to 98 
percent of occupancy. That's a function of size. We are 
running at over 210 percent, as you said, 214. 

It's — as you well know, we're the third oldest 



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prison in the system, and so space is an issue. But we do run 
at over 3,000 inmates on a monthly basis that either have a work 
assignment, an educational assignment, or assignment in PIA. 

SENATOR LEWIS: What about additional inmate 
violence or strife because of overcrowding? Is that a concern? 

MR. CAREY: As overcrowding is a contributor to 
violence in the institution, I'd like to say that at CCI, since 
March of this year, we have not had an entire facility lockdown 
since March of this year. 

In order to reduce violence in the institution, 
we've adopted a cornerstone at CCI, and that cornerstone is 
simply this, that everybody is significant. That includes every 
staff member and every inmate is significant. And when you 
believe that. Senator, you tend to treat people differently. 

So, we acknowledge the needs of the inmates, and 
they acknowledge our role as their caretaker and provider of 
education and other programs. We work very hard to keep 
violence at a minimum. 

SENATOR LEWIS: At your institution you have 
Levels One, Two, Three and Four? 

MR. CAREY: Yes, we do. 

SENATOR LEWIS: I want to ask you the same 
question I asked your predecessor. Just in an aggregate, do you 
have a sense of what percentage of your inmates there are 
violent versus nonviolent, and also are there solely for 
drug-related crimes? 

MR. CAREY: I cannot answer that question with 
detail, but I can answer it from an overview point of view. 



27 

The Level One institution, they're normally there 
on a parole violation, so that would be about 12 00 of my inmates 
that are there for nonviolent types of commitment. 

At my Level Two institution, you can have inmates 
there that are actually — have committed violence and have drug 
histories. 

We get to the Level Three, then it becomes again 
more prevalent that they have violence in their background and 
drugs in their background. 

Get to the Level Four institution, which is 
approximately 1600 inmates, and I will verify, but I would say 
the number is probably in the 80 percent that have a combination 
of either drugs or violence in their background. 

SENATOR LEWIS: What about separating them out? 

MR. CAREY: Separating the — 

SENATOR LEWIS: Nonviolent drug offenses versus 
drugs and violence or violence? 

MR. CAREY: I'm not following your question. 

SENATOR LEWIS: You said that 80 percent were 
either for drug-related or for violent crimes. I'm asking — 

MR. CAREY: Or a combination. So, you're asking 
to separate them? 

They are. They're in the Level Four institution. 
They do not mingle with Level Ones, Twos, Threes, if I'm 
following your question. 

SENATOR LEWIS: That's okay. 

Questions from other Members? 

SENATOR KNIGHT: When you indicate that you're at 



28 

211 percent of capacity, what's that based on? What's 100 
percent capacity? Not the number, but how do you define it? 

MR. CAREY: The institution was designed for 
2,457 inmates. That's the design capacity of One, Two, Three 
and Four. That's the design aspect. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: But that's a number. How is 
that distributed within the institution? Is that one inmate per 
cell, or five per cell, or what? 

MR. CAREY: We have double celling as our 
standard. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: That's the way the institution 
was built. 

MR. CAREY: Yes. It was built with double cells 
on the Levels Four and the Level Threes. Our Level One and our 
Level Two are built as dormitory settings, so they're not cells. 
They're dormitory setting. 

In the Level One, we have a gymnasium, and that 
gymnasium houses inmates. That's how we get the overcrowding in 
the Level One. We don't put more — We're not triple bunking; 
we're just double bunking. 

Our Level One facility has a dormitory and it's 
full. And our Level Four has a dormitory, or a gymnasium that 
we house them temporarily in. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: So, your Level Four A and B are 
both gymnasium types? 

MR. CAREY: No, our Four A and B is our Level 
Four institution. It's 180 design building, and it has double 
cells in those facilities. 



29 

SENATOR KNIGHT: What do you mean 180? It says 
here 500 design capacity. 

MR. CAREY: A 180 refers to the shape of the 
building. If you're standing in the control booth, you can 
basically look at a 180 degree, and you can see all of the 
cells at 180 degrees. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you, Senator. 

My question pertains to literacy. As I was 
looking at the statistics and reading here that a recent study 
completed the level of inmates revealed that 65 percent of the 
population was at the fifth grade reading level. And of that, 
65 percent of the population was at the fourth grade reading 
level. 

What programs have you implemented to improve the 
skills of your inmates? 

MR. CAREY: We have a very active education 
program and a very active literacy program. 

At the institution, if you do not read at the 
sixth grade level, by policy you must attend. You must. If you 
refuse to attend, then you are put on what is called C Status, 
and C Status severely restricts your privileges. So, if you 
test during the classification process as lower than sixth grade 
level, you will attend An education literacy program. 

SENATOR BACA: It would be mandatory for each one 
at each of the levels, or not? 

MR. CAREY: In each level, yes. We have a 
literacy program throughout the institution. 



30 

And if I might add, it's very well received, and 
we've had some good publication in the L.A. Times and other 
papers concerning our literacy program and the success that we 
are having in elevating the educational level to at least the 
ninth grade level. 

SENATOR BACA: What kind of educational or 
training opportunities does the institution provide? 

MR. CAREY: We have a very active education 
program, as I indicated. We have approximately 1800 to 1900 
inmates at any one given time in our education programs and 
vocational programs, and they run at between 97, 98 percent 
filled. 

We do have a waiting list. That, again, goes 
back to the original question of the fact that we're 
overcrowded, and we just only have so many classrooms. 

But I am pleased to advise the Committee today 
that we have just received permission to establish 15 more 
educational positions. It's our intention to immediately 
establish 10 additional vocational instructors and five academic 
instructors. We will be going into an additional sifting on our 
third watch. And if you take that times 24 students, it gives 
us a great opportunity to reach more of our inmates. 

SENATOR BACA: Can you identify specifically what 
type of programs? 

MR. CAREY: They're in the process of staffing 
that out. But right now, we're going to go into the vocational 
program and we're going to emphasize our heating and 
refrigeration. Our institution is one of — the only one in the 



31 

State of California that you can get a license as a licensed 
heating and refrigeration mechanic, so that when you leave the 
institution, you're employable at the range of about $18 an hour 
to start. So, we're going to double that program. 

We have a very successful upholstery program. 
We're going to double that program. Unfortunately, there's a 
lot of car accidents on the street, and there's a high demand 
for folks that can put cars back together. We're going to 
expand our automotive shop. 

And we're going to expand our computer 
refurbiration program. 

So, those are four specifically that we are, out 
of this 15, going to have a duplicate. 

SENATOR BACA: Along the other areas that I 
asked, I want to be consistent in asking some of the questions, 
I think you've identified a certain percentage of problems that 
we had between drug problems and substance abuse problems. 

What recommendations do you make to the 
Department to reduce inmate illegal substance, if there is a 
problem there? 

MR. CAREY: The recommendation that we continue 
to make to the Department is to use technology. Fido is good at 
sifting out drugs, but unfortunately, Fido can be tricked. As 
technology comes, there's more and more sophistication with 
wanding, with going through all kinds of walk-through devices. 
They can actually defect a range of about 15 different 
narcotics. It's fairly expensive, but we are pushing forward to 
have that technology brought into our institutions. 



32 

SENATOR BACA: Then the other question that I 
asked the other one is, the law has changed in the amount of 
good time credits that inmates may earn. The law now gives 
fewer credits than in the past so that inmates don't get out too 
early. 

Have you noticed any difference in prisoners' 
conduct as a result of the change in the law? If so, has the 
change been positive or negative? 

MR. CAREY: Yes, I have noticed, and yes, it has 
been positive. That might sound peculiar. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Very. 

MR. CAREY: The reason is, you get your good time 
credit, even though it's smaller. You get it based upon 
performance and behavior. So, it makes those jobs wherein you 
can get that small credit very valuable. If you lose that job, 
then you lose that credit. 

So, it's had a very positive effect on the 
behavior of those in our educational programs, our PI programs, 
our vocational programs because, in one case I have a waiting 
list, and if you lose your job, and you're not earning that good 
time credit, then it has a negative impact. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: It would have the same impact 
at 2 percent, 2 5 percent, 30 percent, 40 percent, or the old 50 
percent; right? 

MR. CAREY: Yes, that's true. It's true. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: I asked the same question. In 
talking to various educators within the correctional 
departments, they have indicated to me that if you screen the 



33 

inmates, you will find that there are some of them that are 
hardened criminals. They'll tell you what they're going to do 
when they get out. They have no intention of being 
rehabilitated. 

Is there any effort within your institution to 
define those individuals and to make sure that we don't expend 
funds on people who are not going to accept it, or not going to 
utilize it? 

MR. CAREY: The answer to your question, yes, we 
do have a program. It begins with the classification and the 
screening process. Then it's further extended into the 
classroom. 

I, too, have been a former teacher. And 
disruptive behavior not only affects those trying to learn, but 
those that are trying to get into the class. So, if an 
individual demonstrates by their behavior that they do not want 
to be in that classroom, they do not want to study, they will be 
removed from the class. And they will not be allowed to disrupt 
the education process. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: That's pretty obvious, but there 
are other individuals who go to class, and sit there, and take 
up time and space, expenditure, just for the mere satisfaction 
of sitting there doing nothing. 

MR. CAREY: Senator, those individuals do 
self- identify. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Do you get rid of them as far as 
the education is concerned? 

MR. CAREY: Yes. The teacher will do an 



34 

evaluation. We heed that evaluation, and they will be removed 
from the class. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: That's why I spent 32 years in 
the military. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: And served us all well, I 
might add. 

Two questions. One, are your pre-release 
programs the same as the previous warden's? 

MR. CAREY: Yes. It's ten days prior to — it's 
a ten-day program. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Then it's not the same as hers 
because hers is 30 going to 90. Yours is 10. 

MR. CAREY: No, it ' s a 10-day program. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Hers is 30. It's not the 
same. 

MS. BUTLER: Three weeks. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Yes, three weeks; I'm sorry. 

Do you think ten days is enough to get somebody 

MR. CAREY: No. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: What's the problem, funds, 
space, what? 

My problem with the whole prison system is, by 
and large, for whatever reason, my belief is, not for whatever 
reason, that when people go in, I want them to come out better 
than when they went in. And that means we've got to do 
something, not necessarily to them but with them when they go 
in. 



ready? 



35 

And if you really don't prepare them for the 
outside, and I don't know if ten days can prepare somebody who's 
been in the jail for I don't know how long, to go out. 

MR. CAREY: You're correct. We do not wait until 
that pre-release time. It starts with the first day they go 
into an education program, or they go into a vocational 
program. We start there to develop their self -worth, their 
value, to give them skills, to teach them to read and write, to 
have options when they do release out into the community. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: What are you doing in the 
pre-release program? Telling them to expect a whole lot of 
disappointment, conceivably, and how to deal with that? 

I'm serious. 

MR. CAREY: No. In the pre-release program, we 
focus on a lot of the very necessity things they need to do, 
getting a driver's license, getting a place to live, how to 
account for their money, how to account for their time, making 
sure that they have a resume available when thisy go out to start 
looking for employment. 

In that pre-release program, it's very critical 
that we get this fresh in their minds at that time. 

But the preparation to go back out into our 
communities starts with the day that they arrive. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: I think one of the things, and 
again, I think that Public Safety or another committee ought to 
just look at the differences in the various institutions and the 
length of them, whatever is in the pre-release. 

I don't know if you'd have the answer to this. 



36 

but they can get a license for heating and cooling. Usually, if 
you have a felony, you can't get a license in this state. Many 
years ago, when you were you just Airman One, it was called to 
my attention that people used to learn a trade, and these were 
barbers. Learn a trade in prison, this was at San Quentin. 
Then, when they come out, they try to get a barber's license. 
They couldn't because they were felons. 

So, I put a bill in that basically said, if you 
learn the trade in prison, you get the license. Otherwise, 
teach them something that doesn't take a license. So, I don't 
know. May that's something check out whether that applies. But 
it's a very bizarre thing if you teach somebody to be qualified 
to get a license, and they go to apply, have you ever been 
arrested? Yeah. For what? You can't get it. 

Do you know whether that — 

MR. CAREY: I know that we applaud the 
legislation that you got passed. But I know in our 
refrigeration and air-conditioning, they may get a license if 
they pass the national test. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: So it's not held against them? 

MR. CAREY: It is not. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Witnesses in support. I'm 
sorry. Senator Hughes. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Before we get to that, what 
about medical services? Have you had any complaints, or do you 
check with your Medical Director? Because if you're 
overcrowded, you're going to have a problem whether it's injury 
or just common cold because too many people in one specific 



37 

place. 

Do you look into that? Are you on top of it? 
And how do you feel your relationship should be with your 
medical services, or what is it? 

MR. CAREY: To answer your first question, yes, I 
have a very good relationship with my medical department. And 
yes, I do look into medical issues. 

At CCI, I have some statistics in here, but we 
have approximately 6,000 sick calls per month. And we have 
approximately 5939 inmates as an average. So, we have 6,000 
sick calls a month that are documented. We provide over 5,000 
prescriptions a month. We have over 2,000 dental appointments a 
month . 

So, you can see that we have a very large medical 
department. I have deep compassion and passion for those that 
are under my charge, and they are going to get the care that 
they're entitled to. Everytime there's a medical complaint, 
it's brought to my desk, and I review that With the Chief 
Medical Officer, my chief deputies, and all those that are 
involved. 

To tell you that we can 100 percent satisfy the 
desires of each inmate is foolish. I will not do that. We have 
some inmates that choose to self -medicate. They tend to tell 
the doctor what's wrong with them, and I don't think they've 
gone to medical school. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Most people do that, too. When 
they go to the doctor, they tell him what's wrong. 

MR. CAREY: It's important to share that, but we 



38 

have a very active medical department, and every complaint is 
considered very, very seriously, and we look into that. 

SENATOR HUGHES: What is your biggest frustration 
in your job, considering the size of your institution, the size 
of the population at your particular institution. What is your 
biggest frustration? 

MR. CAREY: My biggest frustration is with the 
infrastructure of the institution. I would love to provide more 
services to the inmates, but it's a function of size. 

SENATOR HUGHES: What kinds of services would you 
provide? 

MR. CAREY: I would like to expand, continue to 
expand my education and my vocational program. I feel a great 
need to expand our religious programs. We have all the faiths 
sharing common space, and it's difficult for them to get all the 
time that they need. It's just a function of — that's my 
biggest frustration, is to be able to satisfy the needs that the 
staff would like to like to provide and to meet the needs of the 
inmates. 

Again, it's a function of overcrowding and of 
actual space. So, that's a big frustration. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Do you feel, as Senator Knight 
does, that there's some hard core people who will never be 
rehabilitated, or do you feel that there's hope for everybody, 
maybe, some day? 

SENATOR KNIGHT: There are no bad kids. 

MR. CAREY: In my heart, I never give up. But I 
have had some experiences with individuals. Inmates tell me 



39 

that the only reason, only reason, that I'm not out doing things 
that I was before is because you've got me here. That's only 
reason. 

It's sad. We try to change their behavior. We 
never give up on them. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Isn't it also dependent upon the 
times that they have been incarcerated, whether they're first 
timers or whether they've been there many times in many 
different institutions? 

MR. CAREY: Yes, you can witness — a youngster 
comes in, and he's got this macho image. And over time, that 
tends to go away. So yes, that is a factor. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Witnesses in support. 

MR. JIMENEZ: Mr. President Pro Tem, Senators, my 
name is Mike Jimenez, and I'm the Executive Vice-President of 
the California Correctional Peace Officers Association. I state 
that for identification purposes only. 

I'm here in support of Mr. Carey. I've had the 
opportunity to work with Mr. Carey. I've never actually worked 
for him as an officer, but I have worked with him on the 
Correctional Peace Officers Standards and Training Commission. 

As a former Chief of Training, Mr. Carey clearly 
recognizes the need to enhance this profession. I think he has 
shown his leadership and his willingness to do the best for what 
correctional officers need. 

I'd like to make mention of the fact that Mr. 
Carey has approximately a thousand officers working at his 



40 

institution. It's one of our larger institutions in the state. 
Typically we have — we receive more complaints out of our 
larger and higher level institutions, not only from the staff 
that work there but from the inmates as well. And those that we 
have received and brought to Mr. Carey's attention, he has given 
us an open door to address those. He has been reasonable and 
fair. 

Very clearly, we don't agree on everything; as a 
matter of fact, we disagree on a lot, but he has demonstrated 
himself as a fair and reasonable man in reaching a solution on 
many of those issues. 

Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: I have a question of the 
Warden. Kind of following Senator Knight and Senator Hughes' 
questions, do you have a lot of older inmates? 

MR. CAREY: Our population is aging. We do not 
have a lot of olders, but the population is aging. Due to the 
Three Strikes laws, et cetera, it is aging. I can see that. 

I did not bring the demographics to tell you how 
many. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: The question would be, and it 
seems that especially when you get into what I think the major 
concern people have is violent criminals, is usually at age of 
4 or something, you don't see a lot of 50-year-old drive-bys, 
muggings, a lot of that stuff. 

Again, this isn't yours, but I think it'd be 
Department policy, I think that when we get to some of the, 
shall we say, geriatric prisoners, regardless of what got them 



41 

to that point, that we might look at alternate ways to deal with 
them, which would then free up your space to do more for people 
that there's a chance to do something with, or free up space to 
do something with the people that may well be incorrigible, and 
there's no chance of them either one, getting out, or two, if 
they got out, you can give them a return bus ticket. 

I think, again, that's something for the 
Department of Corrections. 

Other witnesses in support, please. 

MR. MABRY: Again, Chairman Burton and Rules 
Committee Members, my name Roy Mabry, the State President for 
the Association of Black Correctional Workers. 

I also completely support Warden Carey for 
confirmation. We've had some dialogue months ago also over some 
employee problems and a couple of phone calls. And he looked 
into the some of the issues, then he called me back, and 
everything was resolved completely. With that alone, it just 
showed me his willingness to work look beyond what normally 
exists, and try to find some fair grounds to some things. 

With that, on behalf of our membership, complete 
support . 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: More witnesses in support. 

MR. ISLAM: Good morning. Senator. I'm Yusuf 
Islam, the Muslim Chaplin at the California Correctional 
Institution at Tehachapi. I've been there since 1975. 

I can say that since I've met Mr. Carey, that my 
work incentive has even increased. I appreciate having him 
there because my job in dealing with the inmates, I'm there on 



42 

the ground level. I'm dealing with inmates everyday. That's 
where I spend my time. 

The problems that arise, I can go to Mr. Carey 
and explain them to him, and he takes care of them. The man has 
the integrity, something that I can appreciate. 

The inmates that I talk to, even if it's an older 
inmate, I have inmates that I can talk to everyday that knew Mr. 
Carey when he was at San Quentin. Because when he came, I met 
him, and they said who he was. I go to the inmates and say, 
hey, we're getting a new warden. And I tell them who, and they 
say, oh, Mr. Carey. 

These inmates speak highly of Mr. Carey, the ones 
that I have met that knew him way before I did. 

Now that I've come to know him for myself, they 
know what they're talking about. He's a fair man. They can 
appreciate that. 

But staff, I can speak also for some staff. 
Staff is appreciative, too, of Mr. Carey. Their attitudes have 
changed from coming to work. He has an impact on everybody at 
that institution. 

So, I support him, and many of us support him. 
He's a good man, and it's changing. 

I thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Sir, you're a minister on 
staff? 

MR. ISLAM: Yes, sir, Muslim Chaplain. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Those inmates who knew Mr. Carey 
when he was at San Quentin, they've been there some time. 



43 

[Laughter. ] 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Far be it from me to say you 
didn't do much of a rehabilitation job. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: That's right. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: When were you at San Quentin? 

MR. CAREY: In 1983. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: My brother left then. He was 
a teacher. 

MR. SEARCY: Thank you again, Senator Burton. 
Again, Frank R. Searcy, President of the Chicano Correctional 
Workers Association. 

I think it's really important that we confirm a 
couple of things. One is, yes, like has been said earlier, 
there may be some opposition. 

On the other hand, like any organization, the 
head of that organization cannot and should not be expected to 
be perfect, because maybe the one that is perfect, and he even 
said he wasn't perfect, he walked on water and we know happened 
to him. 

What I think is significant at this point is that 
Mr. Carey has pointed out a couple of things in two sectors that 
I'd like to briefly address. One is a strong, strong concern 
for the inmates. That has been proven by his programs that he 
has established for them, his concern for them. 

And like he just got through himself saying. 
Senator Knight, he never gives up on that inmate that says, I 
will never change. He never gives up on him. 

The other factor that I think is significant and 



44 

very important, besides the inmate body, is the staff. We have 
already heard some mention about his concern for staff. And 
it's very important, because in working in an institution, that 
administrators should be sensitive and recognize the two things, 
the inmate body and the staff, because the staff and the inmate 
is what makes the Warden. 

At this time, both of them have made Mr. Carey 
the Warden, and we know that you will also confirm him today. 

Thank you. 

MR. ROMBOUTS: My name John Rombouts. I'm the 
Mayor of the City of Tehachapi. I've lived in Kern County for 
40 years. I've lived in Tehachapi for 30 years. 

I was with Senator Knight at Edwards Air Force 
Base when I was a lieutenant and he flew the X-15. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: We have both got gray hair. 

MR. ROMBOUTS: I'm here in support of Tom Carey 
but also Larry Small. Our institution for many years went 
through many temporary wardens. When Larry Small showed up, he 
was very enlightening. One morning I got a call from Mr. 
Terhune — Cal, I hope I don't insult you on this — he said, 
I'm going to take Larry. I've got another assignment for him, 
but I have another person coming to Tehachapi that I think that 
you'll very much enjoy. 

That week, I talked with Cal four times on the 
phone. If you want to get him, you call him before 7:00 o'clock 
in his office, and he answers his own phone. He wouldn't tell 
me who it was, but one night at our council meeting, a gentleman 
showed up, gray-haired gentleman, looked older than I am. 



45 

He introduced himself after the council meeting 
and it was Tom Carey. That was the day he came to Tehachapi, he 
showed up at our first council — his first day, he showed up at 
our council meeting. 

Tom has been a breath fresh air. We in Tehachapi 
have had relations with the prison, but nothing like since he 
has been there. He's very community minded. 

To tell you some of the projects we've had, he'd 
created signs for our community. The last one was in tribute to 
Bill Mantoff. Bill Mantoff was our Police Chief who was killed 
in 1968 in the line of duty. His vocational woodshop spent 
probably 2,000 hours creating two beautiful carved signs that we 
are going to commemorate our police station to Bill Mantoff. 

Some of the other projects that we're looking at, 
we're going to try to restore an 1860 baggage car for a museum 
that we're creating. 

His auto body shop will be looking at restoring 
some old vehicles for us. 

I have personally been in the vocational shops, 
and they're probably some of the best craftsmen in the country. 
His upholstery shop is second to none. They've taken many 
awards. 

I'd just like to say that I've known a lot of the 
officers at CCI and other personnel. Tom has instituted a 
policy and a code of ethics which is second to none. In fact, 
our city in the last couple of months has adopted a similar 
policy of service. 

And I just think that some of the things that Tom 



46 

has done and the contributions he's made to our community are 
tremendous. I know I hired personally one of his inmates that 
came out of his appliance repair. Very, very successful 
programs. 

And I think that Tom will be a tremendous asset. 
I hope he stays and is confirmed, and will be in Tehachapi for 
the next 2 years. I hope that I can stay and work with him 
because we'll make Tehachapi one of the greatest places in the 
State of California through his programs and through the things 
that he has done for our community. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Thank you. 

Other witnesses in support? Witnesses in 
opposition. 

MS. BIRD: Senator Burton, Committee, I'm Cayenne 
Bird of the UNION, and I'm a journalist. 

This institution in terms of the number of 
complaints from the families does not rank as low on the scale 
as Calipatria, but it certainly does have a number of complaints 
from both inmates and family. 

And I understand that the words of an inmate is 
not considered very credible in this particular arena; however, 
in a court of law we frequently use it as jail house witness. 
It's good enough to send people to prison in a court of law. 

So, I do give some credibility to complaints 
coming in from inmates. 

The thread that I'm getting over and over again 
is that is many inmates are afraid to speak out in this facility 
much more than at others. There seems to be a great deal of 



47 

intimidation towards those who talk. 

One of the ploys that is used to punish is wrong 
gang affiliation. We have inmates who have been in the Hole for 
some time, extended periods. They are accused of having a gang 
affiliation which may be correct or incorrect, but it keeps them 
in the Hole, and it's used punitively according to the 
complaints that we have. 

We also have the denial of emergency services in 
emergency situations. This appears to be a statewide problem at 
all prisons, that if there's a heart attack or something, there 
is no one there except very lowly qualified technician of some 
sort. And, of course, after you have a heart attack, there's a 
24-hour period where an EKG will identify the problem. And 99 
percent of time, these families are telling us that they are 
never sent to see a cardiologist, even after something as 
serious as a heart attack. 

So, again, we're getting the same strong 
complaints on the lack of medical services in emergencies. Like 
a small cancer will develop, and it will turn into a major 
cancer because of the lack of attention to these problems when 
they happen. 

I have several complaints on sexual harassment 
where the inmates are being harassed by other inmates, lack of 
consideration for safety issues, theft of personal property by 
the guards. The guards bringing drugs into the prisons as a 
black market sort of a thing; lots of complaints like that here 
at Tehachapi. Fear and intimidation tactics; having their 
property disturbed; things taken from their cells; stamps taken 



48 

out of the mail. A lot of those kind of complaints from 
Tehachapi . 

Several complaints about visitors being treated 
in a very intimidating and cruel manner as a discouragement to 
their visits. 

Inability of the prison to provide a special diet 
for diabetics, for example, or religious pork-free sort of 
things. Lots of problems with — I suppose you get into this 
when you have many inmates, but lack of special diet. One 
inmate says he eats apples and pretzels for dinner because he's 
a vegetarian due to being a Seventh Day Adventist, and those 
considerations are not given for religious freedoms. 

Various rights violations, disrespectful 
treatment of inmates by the guards and their families without 
just cause. 

But the big problem here at Tehachapi is sort of 
a psychological torment, a feeling of dread. If they talk or 
they file a complaint, the 602 's being thrown in the trash. 

In view of all the complaints that we have, we do 
not, as a prisoner families organization, endorse the 
appointment of Mr. Carey. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Lewis. 

SENATOR LEWIS: I was just wondering what 
percentage of those complaints have occurred on Mr. Carey's 
watch, the ones that you're relating? 

MS. BIRD: It's within the past year. 

SENATOR LEWIS: They're all within the last year, 
the ones you're referring to? 



49 

MS. BIRD: Right. I was just looking at the past 
year in terms of complaints. That was my understanding. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Some of the problems that you 
mentioned is clearly criminal conduct if it's occurring, the 
guards smuggling drugs for black market purposes. 

MS. BIRD: Yes, it is. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Have you or others referred these 
to appropriate authorities for investigation? 

MS. BIRD: Simon and Rand Martin are aware that 
we have a number of complaints. They've been trying to help us 
set up a vehicle whereby these complaints can be investigated. 
I believe that we, with Ms. Sabelhaus here, now have a way that 
we can do this. 

We're only four months old. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Mr. Burton, could you direct the 
Budget Committees to look into the medical services things, 
especially emergencies. I think it's cruel and inhuman to deny 
somebody medical service if they're having a heart attack 
because they're a bad guy. I mean some sort of 
investigation . 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: I think part of the problem is 
budgetary. 

I get an EKG, and it's not the doctor that gives 
it to me. It's the nurse. They get finished, and they can call 
the doctor to come in and read it. 

But I think that point is well taken. Would you 
like to respond. 

MR. CAREY: Yes. 



50 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Some of them are serious, some 
of them are systematic, or systematic, but on drug smuggling, on 
theft of property, on intimidation, things like that. 

MR. CAREY: Yes. 

Since I've been the Warden at CCI, theft of state 
property, et cetera, has been brought to my attention, and those 
individuals have been terminated. 

I've not met you before. Many of the things I'm 
hearing today I'm hearing for the first time, I personally go 
to every visiting hall, every visiting room. We've got many 
letters. 

Every morning — every Monday morning we review 
how many visitors we had, how many inmates got visits, if we got 
any complaints, if so, what were they. We deal with those. 

The great majority of the time I'm pleased to 
reads a letter from an inmate's family that has thanked our 
staff for the way that they were treated during their visiting. 

So, this hearing about visiting really kind of 
goes to my heart because I've spent a lot of time there to make 
sure that visiting is appropriate, because it's a great tool to 
help calm the inmate and give him the strength to do those good 
things during the week. So, we value visiting, and we make it a 
very important part of our program. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: What kind of anonymity would an 
inmate have if they lodged a complaint against a guard or some 
staff person that they might be afraid of retaliation? 

MR. CAREY: They have several avenues to do that. 
First, the inmate may address a letter to me confidentially, and 



51 

I will be the one that opens that memo, it's confidential to me, 
to have an interview, and I will conduct that interview. And 
that happens. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: All right, I've got a beef. I 
decide to write a letter. What do I do with that letter? 

MR. CAREY: You write it to me, put it 
confidential. You can put it in the mail; you can hand it to 
the officer; you can give it to the sergeant. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: If I give it to the sergeant 
and it's confidential to you, he probably figures I'm not giving 
him a commendation. 

MR. CAREY: Could be, could be. But that's the 
process. Whether the sergeant, or lieutenant, or officer likes 
it, the inmate writes a confidential — 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: But as soon as I do that, 
let's say that some person's hassling me, in my mind or in 
reality. Then I have to put up, through the chain of the 
command, the people who are hassling me, something to get to the 
person who can make them stop hassling me. 

MR. CAREY: No, there's other ways. That's one 
way. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: What would be the most — 

MR. CAREY: You've heard the Muslim Chaplain talk 
today. They can whisper in his ear — 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Go to the Chaplain. 

MR. CAREY: — and he'll come to me. They can 
tell an instructor, and the instructor will come and talk to me. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: The best thing would probably 



52 

be a chaplain because they're under this seal of the 
confessional, more or less. 

MR. CAREY: The other avenue which I find very 
useful is, I also walk all the watches. Inmates may approach me 
privately, and they may talk to me. In fact, when I go into the 
dormitory settings, I tell the staff, stay at that end, and I go 
to the other end. The inmates can come, and they can bring 
their complaints to me. 

Now, whether they're true — 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: I understand. 

MR. CAREY: So, they do have an avenue. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Thank you. 

Any other questions. Members of the Committee? 
Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: One final question. 

What policy changes would you recommend, if any, 
to address any problems at your institution, since I've noticed 
you have a broad range of experience from the past to the 
present, if any? What policy changes would you recommend, if 
any? 

MR. CAREY: Policy changes, I think we need to 
look at our business practices. I think within the Department 
of Corrections, it has grown so large that we have a lot of 
duplicity. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Duplication or duplicity? 

MR. CAREY: Both, okay. 
[Laughter. ] 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Witness in opposition. 



53 

MR. CAREY: And I think we need to constantly 
monitor how many folks or how many organizations are looking at 
the same situation. 

We'll have the Institutions Division, for 
example, give us direction. We'll have Mental Health giving us 
directions. Administration gives us some direction, and you 
have to respond to all of those without a clear policy. 

So, I think it's very important that we 
constantly look at our business practices. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Move confirmation. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Moved by Senator Lewis. Call 



the roll. 



SECRETARY WEBB: Senator Burton. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Burton Aye. Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Baca Aye. Senator Hughes. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Hughes Aye. Senator Knight. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Knight Aye. Senator Lewis. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Lewis Aye. Five to zero. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Congratulations to you. 

MR. CAREY: Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Warden Small. 

MR. SMALL: Good morning. Senators. 



54 

I'd like to start out by recognizing my mother, 
Dorthee Small, and my significant other, Bernadette Boisvert. 

My name is Larry Small, and I am presently the 
Warden at Calipatria State Prison in Imperial County. I began 
my career 27 years ago this coming Sunday as a correctional 
officer, got promoted through the ranks as a sergeant, 
lieutenant, counselor, investigator, training officer, and 
representative in the design and construction of approximately 
$2.4 billion worth of new prisons. 

I've also served as a program administrator, 
associate warden, chief deputy warden, acting warden, and since 
February of 1998, warden. 

Besides Chino and Central Office, I have served 
at Tehachapi, Soledad, Corcoran, Centinela, and now Calipatria. 
Calipatria State Prison is a maximum security prison designed to 
house 2,2 08 inmates. It currently houses more than 4,100 
inmates. 

While the average term served by an inmate in a 
California prison is 23 months, it is important to realize that 
more than 1,4 00 inmates at Calipatria State Prison are serving " 
commitments ranging from 50 years to life without possibility of 
parole. 

My management philosophy consists of a 
people-oriented pragmatism. I believe it is incumbent upon me 
and my staff to be pro-active in our identification of potential 
problems and finding alternatives to resolving those problems. 

I believe that maintaining the status quo is 
tantamount to stagnation, and that we must be ever searching to 



55 

improve. I believe in practice participatory management and 
actively seek out the best counsel and advice of my staff. My 
decisions are guided by a commitment to excellence, desire to 
constantly improve, and a conscience driven by my oath of 
office. 

With your approval and concurrence, I would ask 
to be allowed to continue toward maintaining and improving the 
safety of the public, staff, and inmates, the daily functioning 
of a prison, the responsiveness and accountability of management 
and supervisors, as well as the opportunities for inmates to 
improve their potential for success upon release. 

I thank you for your time here today for allowing 
me to participate in this process of confirmation. I will 
gladly answer any questions that the Chair, Vice Chair, and 
Members might have at this time. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Thank you. Warden. Why don't you 
go ahead and comment briefly on both your medical care that's 
offered at your facility, and also what kind of a program you 
have per release training? 

MR. SMALL: Medical care at Calipatria State 
Prison, there are approximately 60 staff assigned to the medical 
section of the prison. There is a Chief Medical Officer, and he 
has a hiring authority. So, he is equal to me in responsibility 
and position. 

We have 6 physicians, 4 dentists, and various 
nurses and medical technical assistants and other technicians, 
radiologist, laboratory technician, those kind of things. The 
majority of our medical work, if it is of a serious nature, is 



56 

in the outside community. We have a contract with a hospital in 
San Diego, and we transport inmates there on a regular basis. 
We have referrals for contract physicians, be they cardiologists 
or other kinds of medical practice. 

For the issue of heart attacks, for example, we 
have a number of inmates, I believe, over the last two weeks 
I've had at least three inmates who have been transported almost 
in the middle of the night by ambulance and staff to the local 
hospital in Brawley. So, we do respond to emergencies in that 
way. 

SENATOR LEWIS: You said you have 6 physicians? 

MR. SMALL: Six physicians. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Not 6 full-time physicians. 

MR. SMALL: Yes, sir. The staffing is 6 
full-time physicians. 

SENATOR LEWIS: That's interesting. I was 
talking to the medical director where my family gets our 
treatment in Orange County. He told me that at his practice, 
that the average doctor has 2100 patients. 

You would seem to be well above that ratio. I 
can see the opposition witness shaking her head. 

Why don't you also fill us in about your release 
training program. 

MR. SMALL: The release training program at 
Calipatria, there are several different avenues that we have 
embarked on. Over the last six months, working with my boss, 
done a few things a little differently and tried a couple of 
other programs and gotten some assistance from Central Office. 



57 

We have a life skills recovery program that we 
initiated about six months ago. It's essentially a drug 
treatment pilot. It incorporates a module called "Life Without 
a Crutch," which is a denial buster education module, and 
another one called "Life on the Outside," which is an education 
track incorporating pre-release classes. 

So far, in the last six months, I've had 31 
inmates graduate through that program, and I currently have 14 
that are enrolled in it. 

We also have a parenting class that's been very 
successful. I wish I could take credit for it, but it was 
functioning when I got there in February. But I and my staff 
have put our support behind it. About two-and-a-half or three 
weeks ago, I went into the facility and into the classroom where 
the 28 inmates who had completed the parenting class were 
graduated and presented each of the inmates with a certificate, 
and congratulated them, and asked them what they had learned in 
the process. It was a very positive kind of thing for those 
inmates . 

The other kinds of things that we're working on, 
we've always had a long term or a long time Narcotics Anonymous 
and Alcoholics Anonymous program. We currently have 160 inmates 
who are weekly participants in our Narcotics Anonymous program, 
and 145 of that are in the AA. Eight of those inmates in the NA 
program have actually been there more than five years, so long 
term. There are 14 staff sponsors in NA and the life skills 
recovery program that we're working on, and also 2 outside 
volunteers that are very dedicated to the program. 



58 

SENATOR LEWIS: Just out of curiosity, you said 
you had 150 that were in the drug? 

MR. SMALL: One hundred sixty in Narcotics 
Anonymous and 145 in Alcoholics Anonymous. 

SENATOR LEWIS: So about 3 00 jointly. When you 
go through the interview process from that, have you gleaned 
what percentage of your inmates have alcoholic or drug problems, 
and what percentage of those are involved in these? 

MR. SMALL: Systemically, departmentally, 27 
percent of the inmates are in some drug offense, and 42 percent 
are in for violent crime. 

Now, there's a carry over there. I think our 
Office of Substance Abuse statistically says that somewhere 
between 60 and 7 percent of the inmates have some kind of drug 
or addiction problem. It's a high number. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Sixty percent, and those were 
system wide? 

MR. SMALL: Systemically, yes. 

Now one of the things I did do is, recently the 
Legislature passed and the Governor signed legislation 
increasing the number of drug treatment beds and made some 
moneys available. The day after the bill was signed, I called 
Central Office and tried to put our name on the head of the list 
for 200 beds for drug treatment. I'm keeping my fingers 
crossed, and since Mr. Terhune's here and my boss, I'm hoping it 
works. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Questions from Members of the 
Committee, Senator Hughes. 



ma ' am . 



frustration? 



59 

SENATOR HUGHES: You've been there a year? 

MR. SMALL; I've been there since February, yes, 

SENATOR HUGHES: What is your greatest 



MR. SMALL: The greatest frustration is 
watching — and I'll try not to take a lot of time — the 
greatest frustration is over last 27 years, seeing the system go 
from 18,000 inmates 159,000 inmates, the staffing grow from 
8,000 to 45,000, and us go from 12 to 33 prisons. 

The gang influence in the prisons and outside the 
prisons, I think, are probably my greatest frustration. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Is it increasing? 

MR. SMALL: I believe it is. Now, there's a 
differential between prison gangs and street gangs. It used to 
be generally, in the earlier days, that it was the prison gangs 
that we had to worry about. 

And if you look back at the history of the 
Department, in the 'VOs, we had over 25 percent of the inmate 
population locked up. They were either in Security Housing 
Unit, management control, or protective custody. 

Our statistics now is, we're down to only two 
percent of the population that are in a lock-up kind of 
situation, and the numbers are dramatically down because we've 
essentially taken all the identified gang members and placed 
them in one of two locations to remove them from the general 
population so that your general population can operate. And 
that was a conscious decision. 



60 

The problem I am seeing is that the street gang 
influence in the general population is having a very detrimental 
effect. 

SENATOR HUGHES: How? They're not incarcerated. 

MR. SMALL: But the incarcerated inmates who were 
members of street gangs. 

SENATOR HUGHES: So, they come there with a 
certain status? 

MR. SMALL: They come with their status; they 
come there with an agenda. 

Since we've removed the majority of the Mexican 
Mafia and Nuestra Familia, and members and associates, to two 
isolated prisons, the street gang members are coming in now, 
trying to determine who's going to run the drugs, who's going 
to, you know, operate the yards. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Then, when it comes time when 
you have to put them in a cell with someone else, do you 
separate them so that you distribute, that you don't get a 
couple of them together so they can plan the overthrow of the 
world? 

MR. SMALL: All I can say is, we try. And the 
other thing I can say is that I know systemically, the 
Department's looking at how to best manage that problem, because 
there's a problem. 

SENATOR HUGHES: How do you manage it? You get 
someone who is from a known street gang, someone who's been 
incarcerated several times, and then you have to place them in a 
cell. What cell, what kind of other inmate do you place them 



61 

with? Someone who is brand-new, or someone else who is seasoned 
like this person? Do you go through a screening device? 

Since you're not as overcrowded as the other two 
institutions I would imagine you have a little more leeway. 

MR. SMALL: Not much. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Okay. 

MR. SMALL: I don't have gymnasiums because ours 
were built with open air gyms, so that's the only reason my 
population is a bit down. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Are there any times that you are 
aware of that inmates are punished by the denial of medical 
services? 

MR. SMALL: No, Senator, not to my knowledge. If 
I were to become aware of that, I would immediately do 
something, either a category one investigation or a category two 
investigation from outside. I'd obviously be talking to the 
Chief Medical Officer. I'd be reviewing the information in the 
file. 

SENATOR HUGHES: When an inmate comes to you, you 
have the complete physical record of that inmate? I mean, do 
you know about their physical condition? 

MR. SMALL: When I'm walking the yards, as an 
example, if an issue comes up, then I can get the medical file, 
and I speak to a doctor. 

SENATOR HUGHES: No, that's not what I mean. Let 
me get to my point, and I meant to ask the two other wardens 
this question. 

If an inmate comes in, do you know whether they 



62 

are a person who has AIDS or not? And if they are someone with 
AIDS, are they segregated in your institution? 

MR. SMALL: The medical department knows. When 
an inmate comes to Calipatria State Prison, they come with their 
central file, which is the criminal file. They also come with a 
medical file. That goes to medical. It's screened before the 
inmate's placed in the cell. 

SENATOR HUGHES: You do not see it? 

MR. SMALL: I do not personally see it, no, I do 
not. 

SENATOR HUGHES: So then, you don't segregate 
AIDS patients. 

MR. SMALL: No. We would generally be placing an 
AIDS patient in the Infirmary when they are deteriorating. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Right, when they're far 
advanced. 

MR. SMALL: Right, and then we'd make 
arrangements to transfer him to one of the hospices. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: I was just wondering, because 
now there are some terrific new medicines for HIV positive 
people that literally, if not stemmed the disease, stemmed the 
growth and even a little bit of recovery. 

I'm just wondering, and we may be asking the 
wrong person the question, whether those medicines are available 
at the prisons? 

MR. SMALL: My understanding is yes, they are. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: All the new drugs? 

MR. SMALL: The cocktails and the rest, yes. 



63 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Thank you. 

SENATOR HUGHES: What about religious clerics? 
The previous warden said that he would like to see more 
opportunities for clerics to come into the prisons to serve the 
prisoners. 

Do you have a relationship, do you have a good 
clerical force that comes there and works with the prisoners? 

MR. SMALL: Yes, I have a Catholic priest on 
staff. I also have a Protestant minister on staff. I have a 
part-time Imman. I have a Native American spiritual leader. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Do you have a rabbi? 

MR. SMALL: I think we're working on getting a 
rabbi at this point, yes. We also have a number of religious 
volunteers, quite a number. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you. Senator. 

Warden, you've indicated earlier that you've been 
there since February. What is your recommendation as you 
address some of the overcrowding, and it seems to almost be at 
the capacity — almost I state — of 2 00 percent capacity? What 
do you currently recommend to deal and cope with the problem? 

MR. SMALL: The Director is back there. 

For the last several years, I worked in Plan and 
Construction for eight years. 

SENATOR BACA: You're fresh. You're new. You 
can come in with these ideas now. 

MR. SMALL: I understand. 



64 

I think there are number of options for 
incarceration of lower-end felons. I think, number one, that 
needs to be pursued. I know that the Department is pursuing 
looking at different avenues, some of it being as we have 
contracted community beds, those kinds of things. 

But I think there are lot of options to look at. 
I think we need to look at how those options work, who funds 
them, because that obviously becomes one of the major issues, 
how to reduce the prison population. 

SENATOR BACA: Options like what? 

MR. SMALL: Well, we used to have a probation 
subsidy program back in the early '70s. That essentially went 
away to a great extent. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Do you want to define that 
program. 

MR. SMALL: I'm sorry? 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Define the program that you had 
that went away. 

MR. SMALL: How it used to be? Essentially, 
rather than sentencing an inmate to a state prison, he'd be 
sentenced to the Probation Department, and the local county and 
the state would subsidize and pay the county for watching that 
inmate. 

I'm not sure. If I had all the answers, I think 
I ' d quit the Department and write a book and become a 
consultant. 

The problem is that there are a number of 
problems, and they don't necessarily all interrelate, but they 



65 

all impact each other. 

So, there was Blue Ribbon Commission that 
generated a report that has several recommendations, and I don't 
know where those recommendations are in the process now. 

With the new administration, new Legislature, I'm 
looking forward to where we end up going. I'm an optimist, and 
I'm hoping that we can find ways to improve the system. Looking 
forward to Mr. Presley taking over Agency and see where 
Mr. Presley takes us. 

SENATOR BACA: Earlier, too, Mr. Warden, you 
indicated some of the problems that exist pertaining to gang 
problems. How is your institution working to reduce gang 
tension in your population? 

MR. SMALL: Gang violence to a great extent, 
unfortunately, also relates to drug involvement and drug 
trafficking, and those kinds of things. 

When I got there in February, in working with my 
boss, I have a drug interdiction team that I've initiated. In 
the last six years at Calipatria State Prison, I believe the 
number is about 4 3 drug trafficking felonies have been referred 
to the district attorney. In the last nine months, I think 
partially because of this team I put together, the referral 
rate, we've done 39 referrals in nine months. 

So, we're starting to impact, I think, the drugs 
coming in, and that's having an effect on reducing some of the 
violence over the inmates trying to fight over drugs. 

SENATOR BACA: So you're saying that they're both 
tied together, drugs and gangs. 



66 

MR. SMALL: Yes, sir. 

SENATOR BACA: The other question that I have is 
pertaining to education. What specific programs do you have to 
improve the skills as we try to prepare them for jobs in the 
future as well, or improve their reading skills? 

MR. SMALL: Education programs, we have actually 
quite a few. I don't want to talk off the top of my head. We 
have GED, literacy, mathematics, parenting, pre-GED and writing. 
We have 2 6 vocational programs, 18 academic instructors of adult 
basic education, levels one, two, and three. English as a 
second language, we have literacy, 

I believe it was last year or the year before, 12 
or 14 prisons got literacy pilots initiated where there were 
computers placed in each housing unit, and where inmates became 
tutors in that process. 

Calipatria was not fortunate enough to become one 
of those, and I'm pursuing doing that, because I've seen that, 
number one, motivate inmates to improve their educational level, 
and change from illiterate to literate. I've seen the program 
work very well. And also the tutors and the people in the 
program are very pro-active, so I'm hoping to get that at 
Calipatria in the near future. 

SENATOR BACA: The final question to be 
consistent, and this is a question I've asked the other two 
wardens as well. 

The law has changed in the amount of good time 
credits that inmates may earn. The law now gives fewer credits 
than in the past, so that inmates don't get out too early. 



67 

Have you noticed any difference in the prison 
conduct as a result of the change in the law? If so, is the 
change positive or negative during the time that you've been 
there since February at your institution? 

MR. SMALL: I think my experience has been a 
little different. The reaction I've seen has been generally on 
the negative side. If the inmates aren't earning the credit, 
they're not as willing to actively want to participate in the 
program. So, yes, I've seen the negative side on that side and 
in the prison itself. 

I don't know how that relates to the community 
and that person not being out any sooner. 

SENATOR BACA: And the final question, since 
you're relatively new, what policy changes would you recommend, 
if any, to address any of the problems at your institution? 

MR. SMALL: Actually, I've initiated quite a few 
policy changes or recommended quite a few policy changes, and 
I'm in the process of working with my boss to try and get those 
implemented. 

SENATOR BACA: Give me an example. 

MR. SMALL: Actually, I'm piggy-backing on 
Senator Knight. 

As I mentioned, Calipatria State Prison has 1,400 
inmates who are serving terms from 50 years to life without 
possibility of parole. So, it's approximately one-third of my 
population. 

The discussion that I think needs to occur is, 
how do you use the limited resources that the Department has. 



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and how do you distribute those resources. 

We've been talking here about people releasing 
back to society better, and I believe that that is part of our 
job, is to try and do that. With limited resources, however, I 
don't know that the resources stretch enough to take in all 
159,000 inmates. 

If I've got one-third of my population that will 
never be out of prison, should we be spending those resources on 
the education program, the vocational training, on that 
population or not. It's a discussion, I think, that needs to 
occur. Whatever the answer is, it's going to be a different 
place, but I think the question needs to be raised. It's one of 
the things I'm planning on raising, and my staff are working on 
raising that. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Knight. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Warden Small, you indicated that you have a few 
lifers that you may have to evaluate whether they would accept 
training or not. I would suggest that age is probably the best 
rehabilitator that you have. 

MR. SMALL: I would agree. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: The longer they're there, the 
older they get, the more they understand what they have to do, 
and the less likely they are to come back; is that right. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: They're not getting out if it's 
50 to life. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Maybe, you know, if they go in 



69 

at 20, they can get out, John. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: With their walkers. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Whatever. They don't commit too 
many crimes after that. 

The question was asked about your greatest 
frustration level. As a result of the investigations, hearings, 
et cetera, associated with Corcoran Prison, the results were 
rather devastating, I think, in terms of the Director and 
Warden, and they were fined punitive damages for lack of policy; 
is that correct? 

MR. SMALL: I'm not sure. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Insufficient policy. Does that 
affect you at all? I've heard that it affects the number of 
wardens waiting, prospective wardens awaiting assignment. There 
aren't that many anymore. It's not as good a job as it is used 
to be, maybe. 

MR. SMALL: It obviously raises my level of 
concern. The 27 years that I've been in the Department, I've 
always done it from the standpoint that I believe in honesty, I 
believe in integrity, I will do — I personally do what I 
believe is right, the right thing to do for the right reasons. 

So with that note, no, I'm not worried. I 
believe in the justice system. And if I get sued, which I do, I 
believe that in the end it'll come out. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: But when they are awarded 
damages based on insufficient policy, it's rather nebulous as 
far as — 

MR. SMALL: Yes, it is. 



70 

SENATOR KNIGHT: — your ability to institute 
policy or changes within the system. 

MR. SMALL: It is relatively limited. My ability 
to implement or to initiate a policy is very limited. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: They may hang you with it, 
though. 

MR. SMALL: Yes, they may. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: You talked about drug 
charges. Was it friends, families, employees? What was the mix 
on the people that you referred to the D.A. for bringing drugs 
into the prison? 

MR. SMALL: Mostly through visiting. Also 
through mail and quarterly packages as an example. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Any employees? 

MR. SMALL: I believe there was one employee, if 
I recall correctly. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Do you have any program to 
monitor what is allegedly an employee problem, smuggling drugs 
in? 

MR. SMALL: We have training on identification of 
people under influence, those kinds of things, and recently the 
contract allows for some random testing of peace officers. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: I've got a copy of your 
Visitors Rules and Regulations. 

MR. SMALL: Yes, Senator. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: I think The print's kind of 
small, for what that's worth. I don't think it costs that much 
to add a couple of pages. And it really is kind of in a lot of 






71 

bureaucratic-ese . 

I would just think that, the rules are simple, 
the explanation is not. I think it might be helpful to the 
families, because I assume that some of the families of some of 
the prisoners are not necessarily college graduates. You just 
might want to consider putting it in plainer language. 

I just have a couple of questions. Okay, attire 
must be conservative to enhance the family atmosphere. I guess 
that's in the eye of the beholder. So, some guard that woke up 
on the wrong side of the bed can say, well, you're not 
conservatively attired. 

MR. SMALL: The officer can make a judgement. It 
would be reviewed generally a sergeant or a lieutenant, at the 
very least, before a visitor is turned away. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Conservatively attired, you 
could have — 

MR. SMALL: I think there's some detail about — 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: — a tie. There's something 
about fully clothed, and shoes make sense. Length of shorts, so 
I assume they're in shorts. Buttons and zippers should be 
fastened; no see-through clothing; no open weave sweaters 
without an undershirt. 

You know, I would think that, I guess, if 
somebody wanted to, you could deny a lot of people in room who 
are not necessarily conservatively attired. I'm looking at a 
tie in the back there. 

More, I think it would be important to make it 
less bureaucratic and simpler so they can understand. 



72 

MR. SMALL: Essentially what I was trying to do 
was take the California Code of Regulations, which was about 
this size, and get it down. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: I think that's good. I think 
it could be even — 

MR. SMALL: I think you have that on the visitor 
coinment. There's a smaller one also. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: — it could even be better. 

Witnesses in support. 

MR. CORCORAN: Mr. Chairman, Committee Members, 
my name is Lance Corcoran, just like the infamous prison in 
central California, substation of the FBI. 

I'm the Vice President of the California 
Correctional Peace Officers Association, and my constituency is 
the 22,000 rank and file in the Department of Corrections. 

I just want to speak briefly in support, which is 
unique for CCPOA, I think. To my knowledge, this is the first 
time we have ever supported any warden candidates. Generally it 
doesn't go well after that, for some reason, I don't know why. 
But maybe it's a new day. 

Three very good candidates today, and I think 
Larry is one of the best. 

One thing I know about Mr. Small is that he does 
care about staff concerns and inmate concerns. He does walk his 
facilities. 

I think if you go to his facilities, what you'll 
see is a very clean environment. He has a unique way of working 
his budget so that his prisons are among the cleanest and most 



73 

attractive in the state. 

A few years ago, I stood in the 12 5 degree heat 
outside Calipatria with a picket sign. Today I think the only 
time our staff would picket at that particular institution to is 
if you tried to remove Mr. Small. And I hope to never have to 
hold a picket sign in front of Calipatria again, I'll tell you 
that. 

A few things that I'd like to comment on. I know 
that this is for the record. This is not specific to Mr. 
Small's confirmation. Just couple of things in defense of my 
profession. 

I have been a correctional officer for 13 years. 
I have walked pill line, after pill line, after pill line over 
to the medical facility. My experience as a correctional 
officer is that if an inmate has the sniffles, that inmate is 
going to be seen by a doctor, or an RN, or an LVN. 

Generally, all of us have complaints about our 
health care. HMO reform is a big issue. I don't know how it is 
for a Senator, but I know as Vice President of prison guards, if 
I call my doctor's office today, it might be a few weeks before 
I get in to see a doctor. Now, if I have an emergency, 
obviously I can go to an emergency room. Those options are 
available to inmates as well. 

As far as what they're given, I have seen 
everything from, if you are depressed, we give you medication to 
make you feel better. If you're a little too active, we give 
you medication to calm you down. If you have trouble gaining 
weight, we'll help you with that. As a matter of fact, to my 



74 

knowledge, the only thing that we don't issue in the Department 
of Corrections is sunscreen and chapstick. At Calipatria, we may 
give sunscreen out. 

We also have a prison system of 159,000 inmates, 
of which 42 percent are convicted of violent felonies. That's 
68,000 violent felons in our prison system. That number in 
itself is larger than every population of every prison system in 
the nation, except for the feds. New York, and Texas. 

We do that with the leaness staffing ratios in 
the nation, and we also operate a prison system that is in the 
top ten as far as over-all mortality rates. 

I think that it's a testament to Mr. Small and to 
his rank and file staff that California is doing a good job 
managing its prisons, not a perfect job. 

They're prisons. They're never going to be 
perfect. I don't think you're going to find anyone who says 
they want to be there, staff included. 

Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Other witnesses in support 
briefly. 

MR. MABRY: Chairman Burton and Committee 
Members, again, my name is Roy Mabry, President of the 
Association of Black Correctional Workers. 

Lance Corcoran must have had my notes, because 
all the things he said, I was going to save the best comments 
for last. 

With that, just on behalf of our general 
membership, we completely support Mr. Small for confirmation as 



75 

Warden. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Thank you. Next. 

MR. SEARCY; Thank you again. Frank R. Searcy, 
President of the Chicano Correctional Workers Association. 

This Association heartily and fully endorses Mr. 
Small for Warden at Calipatria State Prison. 

I'd like to address real briefly some issues that 
have been addressed and probably will be addressed later on. 

Any prison employee, and especially any 
administrator, knows that one of the biggest causes for a 
prison, shall we say, blowup — in other words, cause a riot — 
is three main factors. One is the food, the mail, and the 
visiting. 

If you would go to any restaurant, you would find 
some faults in there, whether it be the service or the 
preparation of your order. 

If you go to any medical facility, you would find 
some question there on the service. 

And we all experience at times some question with 
our Postal Service. 

So in the prison system, it's the same thing. 
But again, because those are the three ingredients, shall we 
say, that can cause an institution to blow up, those are the 
things that are really, really looked at by any and all 
administrators in an institution. The food may not be the best, 
may not be from home, but it's going to be appropriate. 

The medical facilities, yes it may have a 
question there. But again, we have to understand that all 



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institutions attempt to provide the best. And it has been 
proven here, it has been shown that transportation has been 
provided to emergencies. No administrator of an institution is 
going to deny medical assistance. 

The postal, yes, there may be some problem with 
that. However, when it was addressed about the postal 
situation, I wonder, could it have been that maybe there was 
some contraband that was removed from the mail? Could it have 
been that there was some unauthorized material in there? That 
wasn't addressed. Could it be that? 

A few months ago, I had occasion visit Calipatria 
State Prison. I can assure you that after four years and nine 
months of military service in the United States Air Force, yes, 
it taught me, and I am probably a perfectionist in cleanliness. 
When I visited Calipatria State Prison, I was very, very 
impressed with the landscaping and the cleaness of the 
institution. 

Myself and my assistant, we walked into the 
institution on the grounds, we walked into the yards, and we 
talked with the employees. We talked with the inmates. And the 
reason for our visit was to see and get a feel of where that 
institution was with the inmate body and the staff. 

The response that we received from both bodies 
was positive. Yes, there may have been a complaint here or 
there, which there is everywhere, but over all the responses 
were very, very positive. They thought very highly of 
Mr. Small. 

So, it is obvious That, again, Mr. Small may not 



77 

be perfect, but who is. It's obvious that he is attempting to 
administer a prison, and it's obvious that he is doing a good 
job. 

Therefore, we encourage you to vote for 
confirmation of Mr. Small as Warden of Calipatria State Prison. 

Thank you. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Thank you. 

Any additional witnesses in support? And at this 
time of the day, I would suggest brevity. Otherwise, we might 
lose our quorum. 

MR. MITCHELL: My name is John Mitchell. I'm the 
Food Manager at Calipatria State Prison. I represent the 
Calipatria State Prison Employees Association. 

I had lots of things I wanted to discuss, so I'm 
just going to put that aside. 

Representing the Employees Association, we look 
forward to Mr. Small being confirmed. I recognize Mr. Small as 
a compassionate man dealing with his employees. I know that 
compassion also carries over to the inmate population. 

Mr. Small would be an excellent warden, and we 
look forward to many years together. 

Thank you. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Thank you very much. Next. 

All right, let's hear from opposition. Come 
forward, please. 

MS. BIRD: Cayenne Bird with the UNION and 
journalist. 

Calipatria is a hell pit. We have so many 



78 

complaints from here, and the families do not know one another, 
so there must be some substance to it. 

There are not six full-time physicians. There is 
usually an assistant, a technical assistant in the medical 
area. We have documented cases with the Orange County Register , 
senior editor there Allen Bach, of an angina attack which 
occurred twice to the same individual, which happens to be my 
son. And he was a law enforcement officer. 

He is a political prisoner because of my work as 
a political and criminal law journalist who strongly opposed 
Lungren successfully, thank God, but my son has paid a very high 
price for it. And Warden Small does not really probably realize 
how I have documented the goings on in his prison, which is 
where my son has been for the last couple of years until 
yesterday, when he was lowered to Level Three and shipped out 
suddenly, finding out that I was going to be here today. So, 
just to give you a little insight in honesty about, you know, 
this conflict that we have. 

But he had two angina attacks. On both 
occasions, he was given a slip by the technical assistant to 
come back in two weeks. And as I was saying earlier, an EKG 
could have identified the problem if it had been performed 
within 24 hours. 

The physician that is there, my son is a 
paramedic. His career goal is to be a medical doctor, and now 
his life is ruined by the injustice system, but he knows when 
he's having an attack. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Question. 



79 

I don't think that we have political prisoners; 
do we? 

MS. BIRD: We have a lot of innocent people that 
have been taken up in the sweep in the drug war. The system is 
corrupt and dysfunctional from arrest through parole. 

I've seen your materials, and we don't agree with 
you. Senator Knight. We're going to be giving you a lot of hard 
time coming up. 

I'm sorry. I'm a mom, and after all this 
inhumanity and skewed crime statistics, crime is not down. If 
you call the district attorneys and the juvenile hall people, 
they will tell you that crime is up. We know the variables. 
We're out there; we're angry; we're upset. 

So, I'll try to control my temper. I do have 
that Irish streak here. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Please remember, this is an 
individual confirmation. 

MR. BIRD: Yes, I do. 

But we have — one of the complaints here, 
that — two eye witnesses that two guards murdered Eddie Katell 
at Calipatria. The death was ruled an asphyxiation, but the 
autopsy report, which I personally read, and interviewed the 
family, indicated that had his body was covered from head to toe 
with cuts and bruises, and that he was — his ribs were broken. 

Apparently he had tried to swallow some 
contraband. His mother was told that if she complained about 
this publicly to the press, that she would be accused of giving 
him the contraband. She's hysterical. Months have gone by, and 



80 

she's still unable to get the personal property. 

Another inmate, because of the weather down there 
being 100 degrees, and the guards being untrained in how to 
resusitate someone who has been — come down with heat 
exhaustion. Died unnecessarily out in the heat. 

My son, a paramedic, tried to revive him. He 
died. And there was no medical assistance around. And that — 
we have a complaint from that mother which we'll be filing with 
Ms. Sabelhaus. 

We have a former employee, Linda Goo, 
consistently denied seeing an inmate, I believe it's her 
husband. He was employee of Calipatria. Turned away without 
just cause. Lots of this going on. Mail blocked. 

Denial of visitors, strong thread there. Lots of 
complaints along this line. One lesbian was turned away because 
she didn't wear a bra; she's never worn bra. And she came into 
the office in tears that she was not allowed to visit an inmate, 
that she had traveled for six hours, and she felt like her 
rights were being violated. 

It's just an attitude of intimidation. Reading 
materials and legal materials are denied on Cell Block A, which 
is illegal. Inmates are psychologically tortured with 
announcements on the loud speaker there. These happen between 6 
and 6:30. 

They're told to go outside when it's 50 degrees 
outside, still pitch dark. They are given thin tee-shirt and 
boxer shorts, and shower thongs to go out in the dark; 
otherwise, they don't get a chance for the rest of the day, so 



81 

the majority of the inmates on Cell Block A are not getting 
physical exercise. They are not allowed to go outside unless 
they go during that time. 

It's just — it's terrible. They're caged 
animals. Put people in isolation for protective purposes. And 
they allow — there's a lot of racism, but guess what? We have 
a membership of 80 percent Hispanic, Black, American Indian. 
It's usually the Blacks, and the Hispanics, and the American 
Indians talking about the white guards. Not at this prison. We 
have an administration of minority administrators that are just 
really giving the white guys a hard time, which is very unusual, 
but this is going on. 

And the Associate Warden there. Rose Huston, 
brought in file clerk from another prison, which I understand is 
unacceptable. His name is Ronny. He has all kinds of 
connections with drugs, and he intimidates even the enforcer 
there with the other inmates. So, this is going on. 

We have contaminated notices, water notices, 
hanging in the waiting room. The water is contaminated. The 
guards drink the bottled water; the inmates drink the 
contaminated water. The health people say all the water is 
contaminated, but there's a psychological effect when the guards 
are drinking the nice water, and the mothers are saying, all 
this water is contaminated. My son — you know, it tortures 
everyone. They don't know what they're having put into their 
bodies to make them ill. Could be lead; could be the coli 
bacteria, whatever it is. But there is contaminated water signs 
in waiting room and no special accommodations. 



82 

So, if it means nothing, then why are the signs 
there? They're very upsetting to people who think their 
children are being given this contaminated water. 

We have lots of reports of filthy conditions, 
kitchen conditions, people with the hepatitis virus being 
allowed to serve food. And I understand it's not a problem if 
it's C, but it could be a problem if it's B. 

We had a suicide within the last couple months 
where the inmate jumped from a third floor balcony. Family's 
very upset, saying that it's the psychological conditions there, 
which I can vouch for. I have been very, very miserable there 
with having my son in that facility. 

And the Warden was not responsive to problems 
that we had and that other inmates have had. They did bring it 
to his attention, but he's very abusive and, we think, rude. We 
think that, you know, this is a different personality sitting 
here in this environment. 

We think that he should not be confirmed, and 
that these serious matters of life and death, murder, suicide, 
and so forth at this facility should be investigated. 

SENATOR LEWIS: For the record, can you tell us 
what your son was convicted of? 

MS. BIRD: My son was convicted of about eleven 
counts, but there was no evidence, no nothing. It was just a 
total injustice, and I'm going to fight to the death. 

SENATOR LEWIS: The counts were mostly drug 
related? 

MS. BIRD: No, no drugs. He was convicted of 



83 

sexual assault. And he has a 98-year sentence, and nobody has a 
scratch upon them. 

And, of course, we have a lot of that with these 
new laws, and prisoners are in there on stolen cookies, stolen 
pizza, you know, that sort of thing. 

SENATOR LEWIS: You mentioned the death of inmate 
Eddie Katell. You said you had read his autopsy report. 

MS. BIRD: Yes. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Do you have a copy of the autopsy 
report? 

MS. BIRD: I don't, but the way that we're 
working this — 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: I think a lot of information 
is going to go to Nettie Sabelhaus. 

MS. BIRD: Nettie has promised a resolution on 
these things for us, and at least the mechanisms are that we 
can — you know, we've been ignored. People have ignored us. 
There hasn't been a mechanism in place to take care of all these 
complaints. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Warden, she has had a rather 
lengthy list of complaints. Would you like to comment on 
several that are probably the most — 

MR. SMALL: The only reason I'm hesitant is, 
there are a number of items that if I started talking, I'd be 
either violating somebody's privacy rights regarding their 
medical issue or — 

SENATOR LEWIS: What about her allegation, your 
son was shipped out yesterday? 



84 

MS. BIRD: Yes, he was. His status was — he had 
earned a Level Three. He was kept in the Hole for two months 
for protection because his life was in danger there by one of 
the enforcers trying to kill him. And he was sent out, and he 
was allowed to you call me after two months. I went through 
whole holiday not knowing if he was okay or not. And it was 
supposed to be for protective purposes, but it was very, very 
punitive. 

My son has been really suffering emotionally from 
the conditions there at Calipatria. 

MR. SMALL: I believe Inmate Knapp had been at 
Calipatria State Prison for about 18 months prior to that, if I 
recall correctly. He was a Folsom. 

MS. BIRD: He was at Folsom. 

MR. SMALL: He asked to transfer down to 
Calipatria, the way I understand it, in the hopes of 
participating in a joint venture program, which is a small, 
limited program on one of the yards. 

He did come down with safety concerns. We have 
600 inmates on D Yard who are there for safety concerns, same 
kinds of things and other reasons. 

MS. BIRD: They hate cops. 

MR. SMALL: Recently Inmate Knapp — actually in 
June, Inmate Knapp was being considered for a transfer, and in 
fact wrote a letter to his counselor asking not to be considered 
for the transfer until December. 

About 45, 48 days ago. Inmate Knapp advised staff 
that he was being harassed by a group of inmates on that yard 



85 

and was concerned for his safety. He was therefore placed in 
administrative segregation while we could do an investigation, 
try and find out what the specifics were, and then make a 
determination about whether retaining him at Calipatria was 
appropriate or transferring him was. 

The only place that I can take and place an 
inmate who is already on the only safety concern yard and area, 
and remove him from the general population if he is having 
problems there, the only place I can move him to is 
administrative segregation. Administrative segregation is not a 
nice place to be. You're out of your cell ten hours a week. 
You do not get your property; you do not get phone calls. That 
is the operation of the administrative segregation unit, very 
controlled. 

SENATOR LEWIS: What specifically happened 
yesterday? 

MR. SMALL: Actually, I saw Inmate Knapp, I 
believe, last Wednesday or Thursday in Classification Committee, 
put him up for a transfer. I did expedite it, like FAXing some 
information to Sacramento and getting him endorse d for 
transfer, and I did have him endorsed to Mule Creek on Monday. 

MS. BIRD: It's an improvement. I'm glad he's 
out of Larry Small's hell hole. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Moved by Senator Lewis. Call 
the roll. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Baca Aye. Senator Hughes. 



86 

1 SENATOR HUGHES: Aye. 

2 SECRETARY WEBB: Hughes Aye. Senator Knight. 

3 SENATOR KNIGHT: Aye. 

4 SECRETARY WEBB: Knight Aye. Senator Lewis. 

5 SENATOR LEWIS: Aye. 

6 SECRETARY WEBB: Lewis Aye. Senator Burton. 

7 CHAIRMAN BURTON: Aye. 

8 SECRETARY WEBB: Burton Aye. Five to zero. 

9 CHAIRMAN BURTON: Congratulations. 

10 MR. SMALL: Thank you. 

11 CHAIRMAN BURTON: Go ahead, sir. 

12 MR. BOYAR: Thank you. Senator, and I thank 

13 everyone here. 

14 SENATOR KNIGHT: What is this? 

15 SENATOR LEWIS: The Chair is extending a courtesy 

16 to a witness, 

17 MR. BOYAR: I won't hold you but two or three 

18 minutes. 

19 My name is Jesse Boyar, and I'm a member of 

2 UNION. I'm out recruiting daily in the communities for people 

21 to become aware of the gang problem, the recidivism, and all 

22 these things that these gentlemen have been talking about. 

2 3 From my point of view, I have a statement to 

24 make, and I hope that what I heard here in this hearing, that 

25 it's going in the direction that we can probably take care of 
2 6 some of these very, very serious problems in our communities. 

27 I'll start with this right here. It's very short. 

28 California prisons, an institution program for 



87 

failure. The philosophy, one of addiction of the courts, the 
jails, the prisons and all authoritative persons, groups, and 
organizations related to the criminal justice system is premised 
on an ever increasing incarceration rate. In doing so, overt 
and covert strategy, including KGB methods, is orchestrated to 
undermine effective programs that is contrary to this 
philosophy, creating a gulog mentality with people of 
conscience. 

I think when I wrote this, I had not heard 
anybody hear speaking about anything, so it could be some of 
this emotion in that some people are starting to see this. 

And I notice also in the Little Hoover 
Commission, and their ending conclusion saying that recidivism 
is a problem. We have recidivism that is — I don't know even 
know what the word means. To me it says that people are going 
back into the prison. 

When they go out into the barrios, and the 
ghettos, and where ever they're at, under the bridges, or where 
ever they're at, these people are already hooking up with the 
prisons. The prisons are already hooked up with the people that 
are coming in. 

If we are going to make the building of prisons, 
which they say they're going to build 3 more, I don't know how 
many. It doesn't matter the number. That means this is going 
to be a third rail going into the 2,000 Century. 

Now, I don't know if any of you have seen that 
Amnesty International, which is a chilling thing to all of us 
that are living here in America, that they were coming here to 



88 

the United States and telling us all the things that are wrong 
with our country. You gentlemen here that are our leaders have 
got to pay close attention to this and focus very seriously on 
what's happening in our neighborhoods. And are we going to have 
California being the prison capital of the world, which I think 
it already is, but are we going to use it as a third rail for 
our economy, like it is in Kern County. It's 4 percent of it 
is for prisons, and everything that has to do with 
incarcerations . 

Thank you very much. 
SENATOR LEWIS: Thank you. 
[Thereupon this portion of the 
Senate Rules Committee hearing was 
terminated at approximately 12:10 P.M.] 
— ooOoo — 



89 

CERTIFICATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER 

I, EVELYN J. MIZAK, a Shorthand Reporter of the State 
of California, do hereby certify: 

That I am a disinterested person herein; that the 
foregoing transcript of the Senate Rules Committee hearing was 
reported verbatim in shorthand by me, Evelyn J. Mizak, and 
thereafter transcribed into typewriting. 

I further certify that I am not of counsel or 
attorney for any of the parties to said hearing, nor in any way 
interested in the outcome of said hearing. 

y^ IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this 
day o ^ ^^yy^<^^'tt^-^^ — 1999. 





2LYM^ J . MTZ AK^ 
Shorthand-^eporter 



364-R 

Additional copies of this publication may be purchased for $4.00 per copy 
(includes shipping and handling) plus current California sales tax. 

Senate Publications 

1020 N Street, Room B-53 

Sacramento, C A 95814 

(916)327-2155 

Make checks payable to SENATE RULES COMMITTEE. 
Please include Stock Number 364-R when ordering. 









^HEARING 

SENATE RULES COMMITTEE 

STATE OF CALIFORNIA 




DOCUMENTS DEPT. 

JUN 1 h 1999 

SAN FRANCISCO 
PUBLIC LIBRARY 



STATE CAPITOL 

ROOM 113 

SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA 

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 14, 1999 
9:33 A.M. 



370-R 



SENATE RULES COMMITTEE 
STATE OF CALIFORNIA 



HEARING 



STATE CAPITOL 

ROOM 113 

SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA 



WEDNESDAY, APRIL 14, 1999 
9:33 A.M. 



Reported by: 



Evelyn J. Mizak 
Shorthand Reporter 



11 



APPEARANCES 

MEMBERS PRESENT 

SENATOR JOHN BURTON, Chair 

SENATOR JOHN LEWIS, Vice Chair 

SENATOR JOE BACA 

SENATOR TERESA HUGHES 

SENATOR WILLIAM KNIGHT 

STAFF PRESENT 

GREG SCHMIDT, Executive Officer 

PAT WEBB, Committee Secretary 

NETTIE SABELHAUS, Consultant on Governor's Appointments 

WADE TEASDALE, Consultant to SENATOR LEWIS 

FELICE TANENBAUM, Consultant to SENATOR HUGHES 

ANDY PUGNO, Consultant to SENATOR KNIGHT 

MANNY HERNANDEZ, Consultant to SENATOR BACA 

ALSO PRESENT 

WINSTON H. HICKOX, Secretary 

California Environmental Protection Agency 

SENATOR BYRON SHER 

STEVE BAKER, Lobbyist 

California Association of Professional Scientists 

Professional Engineers in California Government 

AMY HICKOX, Daughter of Appointee 
Washington , D . C . 

BONNIE HOLMES -GEN 
California Sierra Club 

PETER H. WEINER 

Paul, Hastings, Janofsky & Walker 



Ill 



JACK GUALCO 

California Council for Environmental Economic Balance 

TOMMY ROSS 

Southern California Edison 

GEORGE GOMES 
California Farm Bureau 

COREY BROWN 

Trust for Public Land 

STEPHEN MACOLA 

Moulden Nigel Water District 

DAN RICHARD, Senior Vice President 
Pacific Gas & Electric 

DEE DEE MOOSEKIAN 
Congressman GARY CONDIT 

RACHEL DINNO 

Planning and Conservation League 

KATHIE SCHMIECHEN 

National Audubon Society, California 

CHRIS MICHILI 

Lockheed Martin Missies and Space 

Semiconductor Materials International 

TIM CREMINS 

Operating Engineers, AFL-CIO 

JIM THOMAS, CEO 

Thomas Development Partners 

ANN NOTTHOFF 

Natural Resources Defense Council 

California League of Conservation Voters 

MARY D. NICHOLS, Secretary 
Resources Agency 

SENATOR TOM HAYDEN 



IV 



JAN SMUTNEY- JONES 

California Independent Energy Producers Association 

BILL PAULI, President 
California Farm Bureau 

BILL CRAVEN 

Sierra Club, California 

PAT LEATHERS 

The Wilson Group 

Sun Made Growers of California 

Southern California Rock Products Association 

BOB JUDD 

California Biomass Energy Alliance 

DAVID HERBST, Vice President 
Playa Vista 

ARTURO ALEMAN 

California Chicano/Latino Democratic Caucus 

National Hispanic Recreation Association 

JOHN WHITE 

Center for Energy Efficient and Renewable Technologies 



V 

INDEX 

Page 
Proceedings 1 

Governor ' s Appointees : 

WINSTON H. HICKOX, Secretary 

California Environmental Protection Agency 1 

Introduction and Support by 

SENATOR BYRON SHER 1 

Background and Experience 4 

Questions by CHAIRMAN BURTON re: 

Implementation of Governor's Executive 

Order on MTBE 6 

Use of Two-stroke Engines on 

Lake Tahoe 7 

Need to Look at All Aspects of 

Mandates 8 

Questions by SENATOR LEWIS re: 

Latitude for Setting Agenda for 

Cal-EPA 9 

Autonomy of Independent Boards and 

Commissions 10 

BLM, Forest Service and Department of 
Forestry and Fire Services' Desire to 
Jointly Control Burn 300,000 Acres of 
Forest Land 11 

Benefits of Harvesting Timber Versus 

Controlled Burning in Tahoe Basin 12 

Questions by CHAIRMAN BURTON re: 

Controlled Burning of Undergrowth 13 



VI 



Questions by SENATOR LEWIS re: 

Inability to Use Methyl Bromide in 

California and Effect on Competitiveness 14 

4 Progress in Staffing Boards under EPA 14 

5 Questions by SENATOR BACA re: 



7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 



^ Need to Protect Health of Infants and 

Children from Exposure to Toxic 
Substances 15 



22 
23 



Environmental Justice 15 

Adequacy of Current Requirements for 

Indirect Source Review in Addressing 

Relationships between Transportation, 

Land Use, and Air Quality 16 

Questions by SENATOR KNIGHT re: 

Problem of Owens Lake 17 

Witnesses in Support: 



16 STEVE BAKER, Lobbyist 
California Association of Professional Scientists 

17 Professional Engineers in California Government 18 



AMY HICKOX, Daughter of Appointee 19 



18 

19 

BONNIE HOLMES-GEN 

20 Sierra Club California 21 

21 PETER WEINER 
Paul , Hastings , Janof sky & Walker 22 



JACK GUALCO 

California Council for Environmental 
24 Economic Balance 23 



25 TOMMY ROSS 

Southern California Edison 23 

26 

27 GEORGE GOMES 

California Fairm Bureau' 24 

28 



Vll 



COREY BROWN 

Trust for Public Land 2 4 

STEPHEN MACOLA 

Moulden Nigel Water District 24 

DAN RICHARD, Senior Vice President 

Pacific Gas & Electric Company 24 

DEE DEE MOOSEKIAN 

Congressman GARY CONDIT 25 

RACHEL DINNO 

Planning and Conservation League 25 

KATHIE SCHMIECHEN 

National Audiibon Society 25 

CHRIS MICHELI 

Lockheed Martin Missiles and Space 

Semiconductor Materials International 25 

TIM CREMINS 

Operating Engineers, AFL-CIO 26 

JIM THOMAS, CEO 

Thomas Development Partners 26 

ANN NOTTHOFF 

Natural Resources Defense Council 2 6 

Motion to Confirm 27 

Committee Action 27 

MARY D. NICHOLS, Secretary 

Resources Agency 27 

Introduction and Support by 

SENATOR TOM HAYDEN 27 

Background and Experience 29 

Questions by CHAIRMAN BURTON re: 

Lack of Groundwater Management 

Plan for California 3 



Vlll 



•< 



18 
19 
20 
21 

22 
23 



Request for Agency to Do Something 

On Groundwater Management Issue 3 

Questions by SENATOR LEWIS re: 



4 Need to Use Sound and Credible Science 

In Creating Environmental Regulations 31 



Thoughts on Changing or Eliminating 

Regulations that Prove to Be Ineffective 

Or Too Costly 32 



8 Examples of Regulatory Over-kill in 

California 33 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 

16 Proper Verbiage in PCL Speech 3 6 



California's Ride-Sharing Policies 33 

Amicus Brief Regarding San Luis Delta 

Mendota Water Authority 34 

Role in Amended Brief 35 

Quote from San Francisco Examiner which 
Singles Out Humboldt County for Enforcement 
Activities 36 



17 Selective Thinning of Trees in 

Unhealthy Forests 37 



Position on Ratepayers Subsidizing 

New Energy Technologies 37 

Questions by SENATOR HUGHES re: 

Urban Park Development Plans 38 

Need to Revitalize Fishing Industry 41 



24 Questions by SENATOR BACA re 

25 Under funding of State Parks Maintenance 

In Past 42 

26 

^. Inland Empire's Infestation by Sand 

High Loving Fly and Kangaroo Rat 42 

28 

Appreciation for Regional Approach 44 



IX 



Questions by SENATOR KNIGHT re: 

Plans to Develop Low-level Radioactive 

Waste Disposal Site in California 45 

Questions by SENATOR LEWIS re: 

Role of State Lands Commission with 

Ward Valley 45 

Questions by SENATOR KNIGHT re: 

Thoughts on Low-level Radioactive Waste 46 

Questions by CHAIRMAN BURTON re: 

Possibility of a Broad Resources Bond 

Combining Parks and Water 47 

Outcome of Water Case 47 

Witnesses in Support: 

TOMMY ROSS 

Southern California Edison 49 

JAN SMUTNEY- JONES 

California Independent Energy Producers 

Association 49 

BILL PAULI, President 

California Farm Bureau 50 

Questions by CHAIRMAN BURTON re: 

Change in Opinion after Meeting 

Appointee 50 

Preconceptions of Others 51 

BILL CRAVEN 

Sierra Club California 51 

JACK GUALCO 

California Council for Environmental 

Economic Balance 51 

PETER WEINER 

Paul, Hastings, Janofsky & Walker 52 



PAT LEATHERS 

Sun Made Growers of California 

Southern California Rock Products Association 52 

STEVE BAKER 

CDF Fire Fighters 

California Association of Professional Scientists .... 53 

ANN NOTTHOFF 

Natural Resources Defense Council 53 

STEPHEN MACOLA 

Moulden Nigel Water District 54 

BOB JUDD 

California Biomass Energy Alliance 54 

DAVID HERBST, Vice President 

Playa Vista 54 

ARTURO ALEMAN 

California Chicano/Latino Democratic Caucus 

National Hispanic Recreation Association 55 

KATHIE SCHMIECHEN 

National Audubon Society 55 

RACHEL DINNO 

Planning and Conservation League 56 

COREY BROWN 

Trust for Public Land 56 

DAN RICHARD 

Pacific Gas & Electric Company 56 

JOHN WHITE 

Center for Energy Efficiency and 

Renewable Technologies 56 

Motion to Confirm 57 

Questions by CHAIRMA!,' BURTON re: 

Need for Society to Get Benefit for 

Subsidizing New Energy Technologies 57 



XI 



statement by SENATOR LEWIS re: 

Reason for Voting Against Confirmation 58 

Committee Action 58 

Termination of Proceedings 59 

Certificate of Reporter 60 



P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 
— ooOoo — 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Governor's appointee, Winston 
Hickox, Secretary of EPA. 

SENATOR SHER: May I do the introduction? 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: A brief introduction would well 
be in order. 

SENATOR SHER: Mr. Chairman and Members of the 
Committee, I'm pleased today to introduce to you Winston Hickox, 
who has been nominated by Governor Davis to serve as Secretary 
for the California Environmental Protection Agency. 

Mr. Hickox has had a long and distinguished 
career both in the public and private sectors. He is familiar 
with both the benefits and the problems associated with the 
state's environmental regulatory apparatus, and he will bring to 
the administration a unique ability to ensure that California 
has a strong, effective, and enforceable environmental 
protection program, while also making it workable for the 
regulated community. 

Winston served as the Deputy Secretary of 
Environmental Affairs under Governor Jerry Brown from 1976 to 
1983. He also served in management level appointments at the 
Departments of Agriculture, Finance, Welfare and Health Services 
in the years between 1965 and 1974. Therefore, he knows very 
well the inner workings of California government, and he will be 
very effective in his management of the state's environmental 
regulatory programs. 

After serving in the Brown administration. 



Winston left public service to work for more than 14 years in 
real estate investment management. His responsibilities in that 
area included managing a large real estate investment portfolio 
for Cal PERS. Winston was also a member of the Board of 
Directors for the California League of Conservation Voters for 
nearly ten years, and was President of the Board from 1990 to 
1994, where he led that organization with distinction. 

Finally, Winston served on the Coastal Commission 
as an alternate appointed by the Speaker of the Assembly in 
1997. 

As the Committee Members may know, I have been 
from time to time a strong critic of the performance of the 
California Environmental Protection Agency since it was created 
by Executive Order in 1991. Frankly, in my view, in the past 
the Agency has not done a very effective job to ensure that our 
environmental protection laws are implemented both effectively 
and sensibly. The Agency has been in the past a repository for 
political appointments who had little knowledge of or commitment 
to solving California's environmental problems. And it has also 
been an agency which often interfered with the good work that 
the independent boards and departments under the Agency 
attempted to accomplish in fulfilling their statutory missions. 

However, I can say with confidence that, having 
met with Winston Hickox a number of times since his appointment 
as Secretary, I'm confident that he possesses the skills and the 
commitment to turn this Agency around. Specifically, in his 
letter to the Rules Committee, he has committed to establish an 
entirely new management team of staff people who both understand 



and are committed to implementing the laws that we pass here in 
the Legislature. He has committed to an immediate top-to-bottom 
review of the Agency to address the problems associated with the 
structure of the Agency and to work closely with the Legislature 
to fix the structural problems. 

He has resolved to ensure that the state's 
environmental standards are implemented resolutely, but also 
equitably, and that adverse environmental impacts of various 
projects' activities on disparate communities are fully 
mitigated. He has committed to ensuring that California's 
environmental protection laws are, and I quote from his letter 
to the Rules Committee, "vigorously, consistently and uniformly 
enforced . " 

In Budget Subcommittee hearings, Winston has 
committed to re-evaluating how the Agency is funded and to 
eliminating the so-called borrowed employees. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: We might lose the quorum. 
Senator. 

SENATOR SHER: Okay. In any event, he's an 
outstanding nominee for this job. 

But I wanted to put those things on the record, 
those commitments. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Without objection, they'll be 
made part of the — 

SENATOR SHER: I give you Winston Hickox, the 
nominee . 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Thank you. Senator, for that 
very thorough introduction. 



MR. HICKOX: Thank you. Senator Sher. 

Good morning, Mr. Chairman and Members. I'm 
pleased to appear before the Committee today as you consider my 
confirmation as Secretary for Environmental Protection. 

I'd like to introduce my wife, Becky, and my 
daughter Amy who traveled from Washington, D.C. to join me 
today, and my grandchildren who are here with me today who 
remind me everyday why this job is so important. 

In the three-and-a-half months since Governor 
Davis asked me to join his cabinet, I've been meeting with 
Members of both Houses, as well as many stakeholders in the 
environment, government, agricultural, and business 
communities. From this dialogue, I've gained greater insight in 
the responsibilities that the Governor and this Committee is 
vesting in me and all employees of Cal-EPA as guardians of 
public health and the environment. 

As Secretary, I commit to fulfill these 
responsibilities and to carry out the Governor's environmental 
policies. This includes implementing California's stringent 
environmental standards resolutely but equitably. Today's 
environmental issues involve complex interactions, both in the 
scientific sense and in activities and in choices we pursue as 
individuals, communities and businesses. 

Challenges, such as non-point air and water 
pollution, pesticides, and waste reduction demand integrated 
strategies and new ways of doing business. Informing and 
supporting the Governor in his decision to phase out MTBE proved 
to be an invaluable lesson. His Executive Order was a 



comprehensive balanced approach to dealing with a difficult 
issue. 

I will apply this balanced approach to future 
challenges confronted by Cal-EPA. Our policies and decisions 
will be based on sound science as we address the significant 
risks affecting the Golden State's people, disparate 
communities, and precious natural resources. I intend to focus 
on outcomes rather than overly bureaucratic processes. With the 
cooperation and collaboration of the Legislature and officials 
throughout government, I also intend to build new coalitions to 
address California's environmental challenges. 

I have outlined for this Committee my goals for 
Cal-EPA. Summarized, I am pursuing several short-term 
objectives. These include: establishing a new management team; 
reviewing the structure, delivery and funding of environmental 
programs; formulating new policy directions for Cal-EPA; 
partnering with other agencies to craft administrative 
solutions; and implementing the Governor's MTBE decision. 

Throughout out my tenure as Secretary, I commit 
to: vigorously, uniformly enforce our environmental laws; 
develop an integrated annual environmental plan; apply sound 
science to our decisions; and serve as an advocate for the 
environment . 

The last point is especially important to me. 
Among the significant, long-lasting effects I can have as 
Secretary is to create a strong advocacy role as spokesperson 
for California's environment. As Secretary, I will pursue all 
opportunities to do this. 



I commit to work with each of you to improve and 
sustain California's spectacular natural resources and protect 
our air, and water, and public health. 

I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have 
of me. Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Thank you. 

Implementing the Governor's MTBE thing, leaving 
aside legislation, that would be done by regulation? 

MR. HICKOX: There are several elements in the 
MTBE Executive Order that he issued. Some would require 
legislation. For example, the extension beyond the sunset 
clause for the underground storage tank cleanup fund. We'll be 
working with the Legislature to accomplish that. 

There are some things that we are working on to 
deal with immediately through the regulatory process. 

By early this summer, the Air Resources Board has 
indicated its intention to re-look at the information that was 
used to designate the Lake Tahoe Basin as still not in 
attainment technically, and requiring oxygenates in the gasoline 
this coming winter. 

It's my belief that in re-looking at the data, 
and looking at the margin of safety, they'll be able to 
determine that they will not need MTBE in the gasoline this 
coming winter. 

I'm obviously speaking of my opinion. They need 
to take the action. 

They also are in the process of promulgating 
regulations to provide for the labeling of pumps at service 



stations to indicate whether the gasoline does or does not have 
MTBE. 

So, without going through every portion of the 
Executive Order, some will require legislation; some will not. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: What about, you talk about MTBE 
in gasoline in the winter. 

How about two-stroke engines in the summer on the 
Lake? What about that? As I understand it, that's considered 
to be one of the causes of problems. 

MR. HICKOX: It is. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Of the problems up there. 

MR. HICKOX: It is. Senator, and there are a 
couple of fronts in my area of responsibility where that issue 
is being addressed. 

Two-stroke engines are less efficient. They emit 
more emissions. There's blow-by in terms of fuel. The Air 
Resources Board, for a number of reasons, is going through the 
process of leading us to a different technology in terms of 
boats on lakes. 

Individual municipalities, in guarding their 
water supplies, are also in the process of restricting the use 
of these vehicles where this primitive technology — maybe 
that's an inappropriate term — but this earlier technology 
causes a risk to drinking water. 

So, there are a couple of fronts where this 
battle is being fought. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: One last question on that. 

It seems to me that the MTBE problem just 



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8 

absolutely demonstrates how screwed up government can be, 
because you had the clean air people saying this stuff is great, 
and nobody looked at it from the standpoint of clean water. 

How that could happen is absolutely beyond me, 
that they never considered that aspect. I talked to Senator 
Boxer about this two years ago, and her staff said, well, the 
EPA and the clean air people, they just think it's great. I 
said, did anybody ever check with the other stuff, because this 
is where, in the Bay Area, that it started showing up in the 
reservoirs. 

It just seems to me, and I don't know if that's 
your role or whether it's Secretary Nichols' role, but I would 
hope that when things happen, something goes in the air, it 
might end up in the water. That people look at the over-all 
problem or benefits of something as opposed to looking at it in 
a narrow focus, and not even thinking of making a phone call 
across the street and say, "Hannigan, your people ought to be 
looking at this . " 

MR. HICKOX: My response to that is — 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Is that your responsibility? 

MR. HICKOX: It is my, responsibility number 
one. And I haven't met anybody, or talked to anybody that 
disagrees with you. Not many people disagree with you anyway. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Quite a few. 

MR. HICKOX: Senator Sher, in his introductory 
remarks, was speaking specifically about the need for this 
Agency to do more in the way of looking at regulatory processes 
across mediums. 



I guess I'm likely to go through the rest of my 
life with MTBE tattooed on my forehead, because it's a reminder 
of what needs to be done to improve the way in which we go about 
regulating business and their activities, and their impact on 
the environment. So, I sure as heck hope I don't create the 
next MTBE. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: What MTBE did, it was one of 
the few things that could bring together Byron Sher and Dick 
Mount j oy . 

Senator Lewis. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Good morning, Mr. Hickox. 

MR. HICKOX: Good morning. Senator. 

SENATOR LEWIS: What is your understanding of 
just how much latitude the Governor has given you in terms of 
setting the agenda for Cal-EPA? 

MR. HICKOX: Well, I guess I would answer that 
question the following way. Imbedded in the introductory 
remarks is a delineation of my experiences, both inside and 
outside of government. The Governor and I first worked with one 
another beginning in 1976, when I was the then-called Deputy 
Secretary for Environmental Affairs. And he and I have been 
good friends for — friends for a long time. And we've talked 
about issues in this area of government. 

During the race for governor last year, he came 
before the League of Conservation Voters to talk to us about his 
views on environmental issues, so I have a pretty good sense of 
his views. 

But he constantly reminds me it would probably be 



10 

a good idea to not get too far out in front of him. So, we 
spent a lot of time with him when we brought forth this outcome 
with regard to MTBE. 

So, the specific answer to your question is, as 
long as I don't get too far out in front of him, I have a pretty 
good idea of where his policies lie, and he and I have had a lot 
of conversations on these subjects. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Cal-EPA oversees six different 
entities. How much autonomy will these entities have? 

MR. HICKOX: As you know. Senator, the 
Legislature in its wisdom created the Air Resources Board to 
deal with issues relating to air pollution, the State Water 
Resources Control Board to deal with water quality related 
issues, along with the nine regional boards, and the Integrated 
Waste Management Board to deal with what you would loosely 
describe as land pollution. 

I say the Legislature in their wisdom, because 
these are three of the six entities. They're headed by a plural 
body. And by design, they are often referred to as independent 
boards. And they carry out their mission in a very public way 
through public hearings, and bringing to bear on issues 
different disciplines — representatives from the legal 
community; from agriculture; water community; engineering; et 
cetera — to deliberate the environmental approaches — the 
regulatory approaches to these environmental programs. 

It's my view that they are in fact independent 
boards. And that my principle role is a facilitator, 
coordinator, communicator, with a little bit of control in terms 



11 

of the budget process and in terms of broad policy direction. 

SENATOR LEWIS: It's my understanding that this 
year alone, the BLM, Forest Service, and the Department of 
Forestry and Fire Service want to jointly control burn more than 
300,000 acres of forest land in this state. 

What is your opinion of the kind of effect that 
would have on air quality? 

MR. HICKOX: Senator, I've read about as much as 
the average person in California has through newspaper coverage 
of some of the preliminary hearings that are under way, 
including the Air Resources Board. It's not an issue that I 
have delved deeply into. 

But clearly there, like most issues in terms of 
the environment, there are somewhat conflicting objectives that 
meet to try and find a compromise solution. There's a concern 
that concentrated burning, out of control fires, would have a 
huge effect, particularly on sensitive populations, though these 
are generally rural areas, and that they would have a 
significant impact on visibility in some of our more pristine 
areas. 

There are discussions and deliberations under way 
as to how to facilitate controlled burnings so that what's 
necessary to protect our forests can be accommodated, while at 
the same time, protecting our air quality. 

It's an issue that's not yet resolved. The best 
I can do is reflect for you the differing points of view, and 
the fact that we're still in the deliberative process. 

SENATOR LEWIS: I also understand that there are 



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plans to control burn 10,000 acres of timber land in the Tahoe 
Basin each year in the next decade, which apparently means that 
they're estimating about 8 million pounds of ash will fall into 
the Lake each year. 

Would it make more sense to allow harvesting as 
opposed to those controlled burns on that kind of sensitive 
acreage? 

MR. HICKOX: To respond to that and tie a couple 
of things together, as I think you would recall in the 
Governor's Executive Order with regard to MTBE, the potential 
for the need substitute ethanol for MTBE as an oxygenate gives 
rise to consideration for how ethanol could be produced in 
California rather than imported from the midwestern states. 

Agricultural and forest wastes are a potential 
source for the production of ethanol. If we find that there's a 
market for ethanol, and if we can facilitate production of 
ethanol from waste materials that would otherwise create 
problems in the environment in another medium, this is, in fact, 
a case study in the making of the need to consider cross medium 
implications in solution to problems, I think it's obvious that 
we'd rather produce fuel where it's needed rather than burn and 
produce air pollution. 

SENATOR LEWIS: What about lumber? 

MR. HICKOX: You mean the waste materials from 
the lumber — 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: If you cut down the trees 
instead of burn them? 

MR. HICKOX: First of all, my understanding is 



13 

that what we're talking about with regard to forest materials 
that would be burned is the undergrowth that potentially could 
trigger an out of control fire. So, the idea is to harvest that 
material and use it, as I suggested, to produce ethanol or an 
alternative fuel. The idea is to minimize the burning. 

But the purpose of the burning of that 
undergrowth is to lessen the risk of an uncontrolled burn that 
would produce huge amounts of pollution in the mountain areas. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Just to follow-up on that just 
for a minute. 

So, the controlled burning, you'd be burning the 
underbrush, and none of the trees would get burned? 

MR. HICKOX: The intent is that. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Does it work that way? 

MR. HICKOX: Yes, it does work that way when the 
intent of the program is fulfilled, but from time to time — 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: You're not talking about a 
massive burning, controlled burning of — 

MR. HICKOX: Of the forest itself. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: — of trees, because if you 
burn the trees, I would think it would make more sense — 

MR. HICKOX: To convert it to lumber. No, that's 
not what's intended. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Thanks. 

SENATOR LEWIS: We're no longer able to utilize 
methyl bromide under federal law; although, I understand that 
there are other countries that have the ability to utilize it 
until I think the year 2015. 



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Do you think that this puts us at any kind of a 
competitive disadvantage, and what are your thoughts on that? 

MR. HICKOX: At the moment we're not, but there 
is a risk to our farming community that they may be. 

The phase out of methyl bromide has been extended 
to the year, I believe, 2004. This is part of international 
protocols that have identified methyl bromide as a risk to the 
ozone. There has been to date serious effort to identify other 
alternatives to methyl bromide. 

The Ag and Water Transition Task Force that I was 
member of, that was chaired by, among others. Congressman 
Condit, made a recommendation that the new administration 
support additional funding to identify alternatives to the use 
of methyl bromide. 

So, we're still in the phase down phase of 
dealing with methyl bromide. And it is a concern to the farming 
community, finding an appropriate alternative. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Last question. How are you 
progressing on staffing all of the boards under EPA? 

MR. HICKOX: Progress has been made. There were 
several regional water board appointments made recently that 
brought us to quorums. The Director for the Department of Toxic 
Substance Control, the Director of Pesticide Regulation, the 
Chair of the Air Board, have all been appointed, and other 
appointments are under way. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Thank you. 

Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 



15 

Winston, experts believe that infants and 
children are more susceptible to chemical poison than adults. 

Have you started to look into ways of better 
protecting the health of infants and children from the exposure 
to toxic substances? 

MR. HICKOX: Senator, as an example, the air 
quality standards that are set here in California are based upon 
the impacts on the most sensitive members of our population. I 
think you're aware that last year, during commentaries about 
then-Assemblywoman Escutia's bill, the Governor indicated that 
he has a concern for the need to address the more sensitive 
populations in a comprehensive way. 

And I have met with Members of the Legislature, 
including Senator Escutia, and my administration is very much 
open to legislation that would require that in the setting of 
standards, we take into consideration children specifically. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you. 

As a follow-up question, research finds that air 
pollution and other hazards are worse in areas of concentrations 
of ethic minorities and low-income people. Correcting the 
problem is known as environmental justice. 

What is Cal-EPA Planning to do to better 
understand those problems and to start correcting them? 

MR. HICKOX: Senator, environmental justice is an 
issue that I, as a member of the League of Conservation Voters 
Board, supported a program to, in our own way, affect 
environmental justice. Last year, we provided support for 
people that we felt would occupy positions in elective office 



16 

that would be supportive of the environment through Spanish 
speaking radio, television, et cetera. 

I only highlight that as an expression of my 
personal support for the concepts of environmental justice. 

Again, in my first 90 days of meetings, I've 
talked to a number of people, including Members of the 
Legislature, about their thoughts and ideas. 

Clearly, one of the areas where this can be best 
addressed is to recognize that individual sources of pollution 
in communities may well be meeting the standards or the 
regulatory requirements that they face, but we should take the 
time to look at the aggregate of all of these and its impact on 
the community, and that has not been done to date. It's 
something that I wish to pursue. 

SENATOR BACA: Finally, the other one pertains to 
transportation, land use, and air quality. 

Do you feel the current requirements for indirect 
source review are adequately addressing the relationships 
between transportation, land use, and air quality? 

MR. HICKOX: I don't. Senator. But the new 
administration's focus on infrastructure development provides a 
forum for us to more adequately, and on a much more broader 
basis, look at growth and development, and in the words of those 
from the environmental community, look at sustainable growth as 
a way to plan for the new people that will come to California, 
both by immigration and birth, and deal with the impact on the 
environment. 

I believe that the Legislature, in its wisdom, 



17 

and the way in the which programs have been set up, has called 
for these kinds of considerations, meaning that the way in which 
we plan for transportation will have an effect on the way in 
which we impact the environment. Just as the recent emphasis on 
infill development will deal with another problem that nobody's 
exactly raised, but dealing with brown fields, the abandoned 
former industrial properties that are very much in need of 
rehabilitation so they can be put to back into productive use. 

We need to integrate a number of these programs 
and focuses as we look to planning for the growth requirements 
of the State of California in the decade or two ahead. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Any other questions from Members 
of the Committee? Senator Knight. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 

In my district, we don't have too many trees. 
But when I was on the farm and we had to clean out the woods, we 
didn't waste too many things. If we did build a fire, it was 
over a rock that busted up to get rid of it. 

We've got other problems in my district. One of 
them is Owens Lake, a very nasty situation caused by the removal 
of water from the lake. The lake is dried up, and now the lake 
bed, during high winds, produces a dust storm of toxic material 
that is affecting various communities. 

Are you aware of the problem, and is there 
anything that you plan on in that arena? 

MR. HICKOX: Senator, I am aware of the 
problem. You and I met several weeks ago, and you opened the 



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subject with me. 

Since that time, I've had an opportunity to 
discuss with some people the legislation that you've offered to 
deal with it. 

I know you understand that the Air Resources 
Board and its statewide responsibility for dealing with air 
pollution issues, including particulate matter, serves as the 
arbiter of disputes between local government entities in cases 
such as yours. 

I am aware that there has been a Memorandum of 
Understanding created to hopefully deal with this situation, but 
I believe I fulfilled my commitment to you that I did take a 
look at this issue. I've met with people and discussed it and 
read some materials. 

And I'll be happy to work with you on a going 
forward basis to try and deal with the problem as best we can 
from your perspective. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Well, I think one of the 
significant things is, if we don't get it cleaned up, the 
federal EPA is going to clean it up and charge the state. 

MR. HICKOX: Yes, sir. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: So, we have an incentive to have 
it done internally. 

MR. HICKOX: That's right. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Witnesses in support. 

MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Steve Baker 
with Aaron Read and Associates representing the California 
Association of Professional Scientists and the Professional 



19 

Engineers in California Government. We have employees in these 
agencies, and they fully support the Secretary. 

MS. HICKOX: Good morning. My name is Amy 
Hickox. I came in from Washington today, so if you'll indulge 
me for a couple minutes. 

I must say, I was a bit nervous when my father 
said the word "confirmation hearing," coming from Washington. 
But a friend reminded me that, in fact, I was going to 
California, and I wasn't going to be in Washington, so it made 
me feel much better. 

It's an honor to be with you today to speak on 
behalf of my father's nomination as Secretary of the California 
Environmental Protection Agency. I know that my father is 
immensely qualified for this job, but there are others here 
today more qualified to speak to the specifics of his management 
and policy experience. 

What I would like to briefly talk with you about 
is not Winston Hickox, the Cabinet Secretary, but Winston Hickox 
the father, my father, and the leadership and strength of 
character I know he will bring to this job. 

I have learned through my father that one of the 
effects and benefits of public service is having the chance to 
impact others. My father's dedication to public and community 
service has had a profound impact on me and has been a model for 
how I've shaped my life. There was little question in my mind 
when I graduated from college here in California that I would 
follow his lead, so I moved to Washington, D.C. to take a job on 
Capitol Hill. 



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Since then, I have worked for two Members of 
Congress, one of whom became Secretary of Defense, and have held 
a variety of positions in the Department of Defense. Currently 
I work for the First Lady at the White House Millennium Council. 

But my father has also helped me understand what 
it takes to be a good public and community servant. I've 
learned that success isn't solely based on knowledge and desire. 
It's also about the values behind our work. It's about being a 
good parent, a good spouse, a good child, a good neighbor, a 
good citizen, and the best individual you can be, having 
empathy, listening to others, being committed, sticking by your 
word, and being balanced. 

My father has led by example in all of these 
areas. However, I must confess, he is a little unbalanced about 
his beloved 49ers. And I figure that after 3 years of faithful 
allegiance, he can be forgiven for that. 

Others who follow will surely touch on my 
father's policy and management qualifications, but these aspects 
of my father also strike me as equally important for someone who 
wants to be a public servant. 

I know there's a great deal of skepticism and 
mistrust on the part of citizens towards government today. I 
know, too, from my own experience in government that much of 
this is unfounded, that the vast majority of those who step up 
to the plate to take positions of responsibility in our 
government are honest, hard working, and dedicated people. 
They're people like my father. 

As a mother with a young son and another one on 



21 

the way, seeing such skepticism and concern about public service 
troubles me. But at the same time, it makes me proud and is 
tremendously heartening for me to see a personal role model of 
mine willing to step up to the plate and serve again. We need 
people like him to help change perceptions and remind people 
what's good about public service. It makes me hopeful for my 
children that they will want to serve some day. 

In closing, I want to thank you for your time. 
It's a tremendous opportunity for a daughter to be able to tell 
her father in such a public forum how proud she is of him, and 
how much I appreciate his example — how his example has shaped 
who I am today. 

I know he'll do an outstanding job for the people 
of California, and more importantly, I know he's just the kind 
of caring, dedicated, and thoughtful person that citizens hope 
will assume positions of public trust. 

Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Thank you. 

MS. HOLMES-GEN: Thank you. Senator Burton, 
Members, Bonnie Holmes-Gen representing Sierra Club California. 

And we are pleased to be here today to endorse 
Winston Hickox as Cal-EPA Director. We believe he is someone 
who is concerned about public health and the environment, and 
motivated to protect public health and the environment, and 
committed to making the Agency work. He has shown that he will 
be someone who is accessible and will listen to the 
environmental community. 

We are pleased with the commitments expressed by 



22 

Mr. Hickox to review the over-all structure and goals of the 
Agency, and pleased that he has already set goals to bring 
multi-media coordination into Cal-EPA. 

We do believe that the Governor's Executive Order 
on MTBE demonstrates a new kind of leadership, and the kind of 
multi-media approach that has been missing at Cal-EPA in the 
past, and provides a helpful first step toward broadening the 
cross media approach to other issues in the Agency. 

We endorse Winston Hickox for Cal-EPA Secretary. 

MR. WEINER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of 
the Committee. Peter Weiner from Paul, Hastings, Janofsky & 
Walker. I represent a broad variety of business interests which 
regularly have issues involving the constituents' boards, 
departments and offices of Cal-EPA. 

I was a supporter of Cal-EPA 's creation and have 
been a sometime critic of its performance. 

I'm pleased to support the confirmation of 
Winston Hickox as Secretary of the California Environmental 
Protection Agency. I've known Mr. Hickox for 20 years. He has 
a broad programmatic background that is key to establishing 
priorities and the fiscal training so essential to implementing 
those priorities successfully. 

Perhaps more important to the Secretary position, 
Mr. Hickox is a man of honesty, humor, and energy. He's clearly 
dedicated to protecting human health and the environment, both 
in implementing the mandates of the Legislature, and in seeking 
out new challenges to prevent, for example, the new MTBE. 

But he is also a man who listens, both to the 



23 

Legislature and to the public, a man who seeks consensus but 
will make the hard decisions when consensus is not possible. 

Cal-EPA has been criticized in the previous 
administration, and justifiably so. If the Davis administration 
is to coordinate the Cal-EPA constituent agencies and establish 
accountability, while respecting the independent nature of those 
various boards, Winston Hickox is a terrific choice to make 
these things happen. 

I hope you vote to confirm him. Thank you. 

MR. GUALCO: Mr. Chair and Members, Jack Gualco 
on behalf of the business, labor, and community leader folk who 
make up the California Council for Environmental Economic 
Balance. 

We're pleased to appear today in support of 
Secretary Hickox 's confirmation. We've found during the brief 
time he's been at that post that he's been willing to roll up 
his sleeves, ask the tough questions, raise, I think, some very 
challenging questions about the scope and the interrelationship 
of the Cal-EPA Agencies. We believe those kinds of questions 
are long over due. We're looking forward to working with him, 
and we're looking forward to continue to answer his very tough 
questions. 

We urge your support of his confirmation. Thank 
you. 

MR. ROSS: Mr. Chairman and Members, Tommy Ross, 
Southern California Edison. 

While I don't claim to be a member of 
Mr. Hickox' s family, I do want to let you know that John Bryson, 



24 

our Chairman of the Board, does have a long-term relationship 
with Mr. Hickox. I want to make sure you knew that from his 
perspective, he thinks he ' s a fine gentleman who would be a fine 
Secretary of Cal-EPA, and would encourage your support for his 
confirmation. 

MR. GOMES: Mr. Chairman and Members, my name is 
George Gomes with the California Farm Bureau. 

We have had an opportunity to work Mr. Hickox, 
and he has shown a commitment to basing decisions upon sound 
science, to being open to input from all parties. 

We encourage your full support of his 
confirmation. 

MR. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Members. 
Corey Brown with the Trust for Public Land. 

We also support Mr. Hickox 's confirmation. He 
understands how the different components of California's 
environmental policy work together. We look forward to 
excellent decision making. We urge your confirmation. 

MR. MACOLA: Mr. Chairman, Steve Macola on behalf 
of Moulden Nigel Water District. 

We're familiar with Mr. Hickox. He's a wonderful 
appointment. We ask for his confirmation. Thank you. 

MR. RICHARD: Mr. Chairman and Members, I'm Dan 
Richard, Senior Vice President of Pacific Gas and Electric 
Company. I'm also the President of the Board of the Bay Area 
Rapid Transit District and a friend of Winston Hickox for 20 
years. I've worked with him in the environmental community in 
many capacities. He's very tough; he's very smart; he's very 



25 

fair. 

We urge your confirmation. Thank you. 

MS. MOOSEKIAN: Mr. Chairman, Members, Dee Dee 
Moosekian, here on behalf of Congressman Gary Condit. 

Congressman Condit was the Chair of Governor 
Davis' Transition Task Force on Ag and Water on which Winston 
Hickox served. 

Congressman Condit strongly and enthusiastically 
supports Winston Hickox in this position. He feels that not 
only is Mr. Hickox fiercely dedicated to environmental quality 
in California, but also that he is dedicated to building 
consensus where possible. He's fair, open-minded, and we trust 
that he will do an excellent job. 

MS. DINNO: Good morning. My name's Rachel Dinno 
with the Planning and Conservation League. 

We strongly urge you to support Mr. Hickox in 
this position. We believe his leadership and his guidance in 
protecting our environmental resources in this state will be of 
great value. 

Thank you. 

MS. SCHMIECHEN: Good morning, Mr. Chair and 
Committee Members. My name is Kathie Schmiechen. I represent 
the National Audubon Society. 

We've already worked with Mr. Hickox on the MTBE 
issue, and we strongly support his confirmation. 

MR. MICHELI: Mr. Chairman and Members, Chris 
Michel i with Carpenter, Snodgrass, on behalf of Lockheed Martin 
Missiles and Space, and Semiconductor Materials International, a 



26 

high tech trade association. 

We urge your support for his confirmation. Thank 
you. 

MR. CREMINS: Mr. Chairman and Members, Tim 
Cremins, Operating Engineers, AFL-CIO. 

We strongly support Mr. Hickox. I think he's 
probably in the forefront of one of the toughest issues facing 
the Legislature today, is both economic and environmental 
vitality of the state, trying to keep it alive. And he has 
certainly shown a willingness to give us a say and a voice in 
the process. 

MR. THOMAS: Good morning. I'm Jim Thomas. I'm 
CEO of Thomas Development Partners. 

As a real estate developer, we feel we have a 
special responsibility to the environment. I've known Winston, 
both in business and as a personal friend. He think he would 
make an excellent selection, and I urge your confirmation of his 
appointment. 

MS. NOTTHOFF: Ann Notthoff with the Natural 
Resources Defense Council. And I've had a chance to serve with 
Winston as a fellow board member on the California League of 
Conservation Voters, where he distinguished himself with his 
great administrative ability, and I have confidence he'll do the 
same here for the State of California. Support his 
confirmation. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Witnesses in opposition? 

SENATOR HUGHES: I'd like to oppose the 
nomination of Mr. Hitchcock, and I'd like to move the nomination 



27 

of Mr. Hickox. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Mr. Chairman, if his daughter is 
any indication of his abilities, then I would suggest we let him 
try with the Cal-EPA and see what he can do there. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Call the roll. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Baca Aye. Senator Hughes. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Hughes Aye. Senator Knight. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Knight Aye. Senator Lewis. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Lewis Aye. Senator Burton. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Burton Aye. Five to zero. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Congratulations, Winston. 

MR. HICKOX: Thank you, sir. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Next, Mary Nichols, Secretary, 
Resources Agency. 

Senator Hayden. 

SENATOR HAYDEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and 
Members . 

I'm honored to introduce for your consideration 
and support the confirmation of Mary D. Nichols for Secretary 
of Resources. 

Mary Nichols has had a very long experience and 
is one of the products of the environmental movement who has 



28 

become a real professional, a real administrator. She served 
with current Governor Davis during the Brown administration in 
the 197 0s on the Air Resources Board, and was Chair of it. 
Secretary for Environmental Affairs. 

She additionally, during the Clinton 
administration, served in the top position for Air and Radiation 
at the Environmental Protection Agency. 

All along, she has also served as an 
environmental attorney, as administrator of organizations such 
as the Natural Resources Defense Council. She's had clients, 
both public and private. 

I know her to be a person of great environmental 
idealism in terms of her goals, and I also know her as a real 
centrist in her approach. And I have had the experience of 
having to lobby, argue, and be brought to the table by 
Ms. Nichols. 

And I think that she has the qualities that 
Governor Davis has spoken of, and that those are very proven 
qualities: to believe in the Governor's programs; the 
Governor's vision; and to function from the center, trying to 
bring stakeholders together to solve problems. Tough to find 
that kind of person. It's usually one or the other. I think 
she's terrific in both capacities. 

If you look at her letter to the Rules Committee, 
she stresses those qualities, skills in management, number one. 
Skills in collaborative approaches to solving resource issues, 
number two. A firm commitment to implementing and enforcing the 
laws that we have on the books before we start writing new laws. 



29 

A firm commitment to science, really independent science in 
decision making. And a commitment to increased funding for 
certain needs, such as the woeful state of our parks and 
recreational facilities. 

That's a good agenda. It's one that we can work 
with. I think you have before you an eminently qualified 
professional and dedicated public servant in Mary Nichols. We 
should be proud to have her, and I would urge the Committee to 
confirm her nomination. 

MS. NICHOLS: Thank you very much, Senator 
Hayden. I'm proud to be one of your constituents and to have 
worked with you over the years in a number of areas to improve 
the state of California's environment. 

We in California are indeed blessed with a 
richness and diversity of natural resources which is only 
matched by the richness and diversity of our human resources. 
It's my great honor and privilege to have been chosen by 
Governor Davis to be the chief steward of the state's natural 
resources and to attempt to manage and restore wherever possible 
the beauty and the productivity of those resources. 

I look forward to working with this Committee. 
As Senator Hayden indicated, I have submitted a letter which 
outlines my priorities in more detail. So, I think without 
further ado, I'd just like to make myself available for your 
questions. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Just a couple. 

In the area of water, I become kind of concerned 
that California, I guess, is the only state in the Union without 



30 

a groundwater management plan. 

Surprisingly enough, I think Orange County, are 
they the only county in the state with an actual groundwater 
management plan? 

MS. NICHOLS: I'm not certain at the county 
level. We do have a number of areas where districts have gone 
and either voluntarily or through adjudication worked out 
groundwater management plans. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: There was a bill passed a 
couple years ago, Senator Costa and Jones, I think it was either 
2020 or 3030, that permitted groundwater management, which I 
assume, if you need a law to permit you to do something, it's a 
real problem. It's my understanding that there was a study on 
that, that said nothing really happened. 

Could your Agency try to bring together forces to 
do something on the groundwater management issue? Would that 
take legislation? And with all your responsibilities, have you 
given much thought to what would be doable without necessarily 
giving some of the ag people a heart attack? 

MS. NICHOLS: Well, Senator Burton, there's no 
doubt that California's groundwater is one of our most valuable 
resources, and the groundwater basins are increasingly being 
looked to for their value in terms of management of the state's 
water supplies. 

It is true that we do not have a comprehensive 
program for groundwater management, and that in the past, there 
has been considerable opposition to creating such a program, 
mainly from owners of land that overlies those groundwater 



31 

basins. 

It's also true that there's increasing 
recognition that in many areas of the state we have over drafted 
the groundwater and made it difficult to use it as it should be 
used. For that reason, I think there's increasing interest in 
the area of finding a method and some incentives to get people 
into a more systematic approach to groundwater. 

I think that the CALFED process has begun to more 
clearly identify the basic reasons why and some of the 
parameters that you'd want to use in the groundwater management 
program, as well as to show the need for storage, including 
groundwater storage, as part of an over-all plan for assuring 
long-term, reliable, safe supplies of water for California. 

So, I would expect that there will be some real 
momentum behind developing such plans for the future, and I look 
forward, along with Tom Hannigan, our new Director of Water 
Resources, to developing some specific proposals that would move 
us in that direction. 

CHAIRMAN BXJRTON: Senator Lewis. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Good morning. 

MS. NICHOLS: Good morning. 

SENATOR LEWIS: It's been my experience, or it 
seems to me that too often emotion plays too great a part in 
creating at least some environmental regulations. 

I guess my question to you is, do you think that 
we should ever deviate from using sound science and credible 
science for creating environmental regulations? 

MS. NICHOLS: I can't think of an instance in 



32 

which environmental regulations aren't or shouldn't be based on 
science. 

There's always an element, however, in the 
regulatory process where judgement has to be introduced as to 
how you evaluate the science. And there, I suppose, other 
values sometimes come into play, such as equity, fairness, and 
those sorts of things. 

SENATOR LEWIS: What are your thoughts about 
changing or eliminating regulations that might prove to be 
either somewhat ineffective or at least too costly in terms of 
what they provide? 

MS. NICHOLS: I believe very strongly. Senator, 
that we should be trying to marshal our resources, including our 
tax dollars, in the direction of programs that give us the most 
bang for the buck, and that if at all possible, have multiple 
benefits. 

And the converse of that is that you should at 
least try to identify programs where, if it's obvious that 
there's no merit being served, that you could eliminate it. 

I'm proud to say I'm only person in the history 
of EPA, as far as I know, the federal government, ever to have 
gotten a chemical actually de-listed as a toxic chemical because 
I felt the science simply did not support the notion that it 
belonged on the list. 

I think it's important for government to be able 
to do that where the science warrants. 

SENATOR LEWIS: What environmental regulation in 
California today would you say might be an example of regulatory 



33 

over-kill? 

MS. NICHOLS: I have not personally identified 
any such regulations, but I'm certainly prepared to concede that 
there might exist, and would be open to learning about them. I 
think that's part of the continuous improvement process that we 
need to go through. 

SENATOR LEWIS: In your experience on the federal 
level, you must have been aware of any number of studies 
dealing, for example, with ride-sharing policies in California. 
Do you think that those are a valuable way to fight air 
pollution in terms the dollars spent versus the pollution 
reduced? 

MS. NICHOLS: Senator, as you know, that area is 
not one that I've been working in for sometime now, but going 
back to the days when I was working in the air pollution 
regulatory field, I believe we were in a situation where South 
Coast Air Basin felt rather strongly, because of the disparate 
nature of the problem, that is, the high degree of pollution and 
the amount of regulation that has already been imposed on 
stationary sources of pollution, that they needed to try other 
tools to get at the remaining large share of the problem that's 
caused by individual motorists and their cars. And they saw the 
ride-sharing program as an effective way to remind people, 
especially those who work in concentrated areas with large 
employers, that it would be a more effective way to reduce 
pollution and get people to and from work. 

So, it was not a program that we were pushing or 
requiring. It was a program that was developed locally. 



34 

SENATOR LEWIS: Did you ever independently look 
into that? Did you share their view that it was an effective 
tool? 

MS. NICHOLS: Did I independently look into that 
issue? Yes, I certainly reviewed some reports and studies on 
it that indicated that in terms of cost effectiveness per se, 
it was not one of the cheapest ways to get reductions in 
pollution. 

But it is a matter of local choice, and it's up 
to local governments to make those choices as how they want to 
go about solving a complex problem like air pollution. It's not 
an area that the federal government has a right to interfere in 
under the federal Clean Air Act. 

SENATOR LEWIS: With regard to the San Luis Delta 
Mendota Water Authority, the Wilson administration had filed an 
amicus brief supporting the Water Authority in the lawsuit it 
had with the federal government, and then you pulled the brief. 

First of all, what was the Agency's or your 
rationale for withdrawing that brief? 

MS. NICHOLS: Senator, when I came into office at 
the same time as the Governor was inaugurated, I was made aware 
of the fact that there was an amicus brief which had been 
prepared by the Attorney General's Office at the reguest of the 
Wilson administration but had not yet been filed with the 
court . 

I had not had a chance to read the brief, but it 
was obvious from the case that it was a brief that was intended 
to side with one party in a complicated litigation matter that 



35 

was directly related to the underlying issues that were being 
considered through the CALFED process. And I asked the Attorney 
General to hold the brief and to submit it for me to review the 
con tents of the brief so that I could make an independent 
decision as to whether the Davis administration wanted to 
continue with the position that the Wilson administration had 
been advocating. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Was that a unilateral decision on 
your part? 

MS. NICHOLS: Yes, it was. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Well, Governor Davis did file an 
amended brief later on. 

MS. NICHOLS: Yes, he did. 

SENATOR LEWIS: What was your role in filing the 
amended brief? 

MS. NICHOLS: I worked with the stakeholders who 
had been involved in the CALFED process and in the Ag Water 
Transition Committee, and who had been involved in the 
litigation to see if there was a position that the Davis 
administration would wish to take which was less prejudicial in 
terms of the items that were under discussion in the CALFED 
process, but that continued with the Governor's position that 
the Interior Department should prepare an accounting of water 
under the CVPIA, the Central Valley Project Improvement Act. 

So, as you stated correctly, the brief that we 
submitted in the end was a different brief; although, portions 
of it were identical. Portions of the earlier brief were 
deleted that appeared to take a position as to how the 



36 

accounting should be done by the Interior Department. 

My role was to help put that together. 

SENATOR LEWIS: In the February 27 edition of the 
San Francisco Examiner , you were quoted as saying that Governor 



Davis had ordered a doubling of inspection and enforcement 
activities of the Department of Fish and Game, the Department of 
Forestry, and the Department of Conservation as they relate to 
logging in Humboldt County. 

Why was Humboldt County, which only accounts for 
27 percent of the timber harvest in the State of California, why 
was Humboldt County singled out? 

MS. NICHOLS: I believe that that quote doesn't 
accurately reflect what the Governor's program is. I'm assuming 
that the quote is correct, but the intent was not to single out 
Humboldt County. 

Actually, the increasing in enforcement is 
throughout an entire region as defined by the Department of 
Forestry and the Department of Fish and Game, which includes the 
north coast area where most of the logging in the state occurs. 
It's not limited to Humboldt County. 

I suspect I was either answering a reporter's 
question, or perhaps simply focusing on Humboldt because that 
was what we were talking about in the conversation. 

SENATOR LEWIS: In a speech that you give at PCL, 
you referred to Mr. Charles Herwitz as one of the better known 
robber barons of American history. 

I was just curious if you think that's the 
appropriate kind of verbiage for an Agency Secretary to use? 



37 

MS. NICHOLS: That speech, which was quoted, I 
think, in a Dan Walters column, is an accurate quote from the 
speech. I believe that in the context it was given, it was a 
term that was used with humor. It's also a term of art, and I 
stand by it. 

SENATOR LEWIS: So, it was a roast. 

It's been shown that direct selectively thinning 
trees in unhealthy forests will eliminate a large percent of the 
future tree death, and also lower the risk of catastrophic wild 
fires. 

Do you think that's a useful tool in areas like 
the Lake Tahoe Basin? 

MS. NICHOLS: Senator, I can't comment on a 
specific forest and what the correct methods of dealing with 
forest health are. 

I ' m very fortunate that the Governor has 
appointed as the Director of Forestry Andrea Tuttle, a person 
who has a strong background, both on the business as well as on 
the environmental side of forestry. 

It's my general understanding that sound forest 
management does include some use of cutting of trees. And that 
in many situations, simply leaving a forest alone is not the 
best way to manage for its health. 

SENATOR LEWIS: One of the components of Assembly 
Bill 1890 was giving the renewable energy community $540 million 
over a five-year period to foster renewable energy technologies. 

In a competitive market place, do you think state 
ratepayers should be subsidizing any kind of energy technology? 



38 

MS. NICHOLS: Well, that's a broad question. 

I think subsidies are sometimes in the eye of the 
beholder. I'm certainly very much in favor of the state 
spending money to encourage private expenditures in the area of 
research and development, demonstration of new technologies 
where needed, and in some situations, helping to create a market 
for those new technologies can be the best way to get them 
going. 

That particular fund, as I understand it, was 
part of a settlement that came about during the legislation that 
deregulated the electric industry. And when programs that the 
utilities had had in place were being effectively dismantled or 
ended as part of the deregulatory process, that this fund was 
created to find a way to maintain some of the momentum towards 
alternatives that was going on at the time. 

So, I think of it as a one-time program and not 
necessarily something that would be a permanent feature of the 
way we regulate energy. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Hughes. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Good morning. I'd like to ask 
you, Ms. Nichols, what are your plans? I heard in your opening 
statement, you mentioned urban park development. I'd like to 
know what are your plans in that area, and why are you going to 
urban park development? Where is the money going to come from? 
What will this do for California? 

MS. NICHOLS: Senator Hughes, a couple of issues 
there. First of all, the state already owns considerable 
amounts of land in urban areas, some of which we manage ourself. 



39 

and a lot of which is managed through joint agreements with 
local agencies. 

I've heard many complaints, and I, myself, when I 
was a local park commissioner in the City of Los Angeles, 
experienced the fact that the state isn't always doing what 
seems to be its share in terms of maintaining those parks. So, 
there's an issue about whether the state is properly maintaining 
the facilities that we already own. 

There are also areas, and you and I have talked 
about the Baldwin Hills area in Los Angeles, where there are 
areas which today are industrial sites. In the case of Baldwin 
Hills, it's an oil drill in the area. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Yes, and the Kenny Hahn Park is 
located there. 

Would you tell the Committee what your plans are, 
because we've got a lot of oil being pumped there, and I think 
they might be interested. 

MS. NICHOLS: The Baldwin Hills area in West Los 
Angeles is a two-square-mile area, a small portion of which is a 
state park, the Kenneth Hahn State Park, which has been 
landscaped and developed as a recreational area with a lake 
that's actually stocked with trout. It's an extremely popular, 
well-used park. 

But the surrounding area, which is now leased for 
oil development, and is still being actively produced with steam 
flooding, is an area which is going to be eventually finished as 
an oil field. It's already some declining value in terms of the 
production. 



40 

And the hope is that we can assemble sufficient 
interest on the part of local jurisdictions in the state and 
even federal agencies to gradually purchase the whole area, 
which would be the largest site anywhere were in the western 
part of the L.A. Basin, and make it available to the public for 
recreation. 

It is an area which is very underserved by 
parks. It's an area that has a mixture of middle-class, working 
class, and some upper-class residents around it. And there's a 
tremendous interest, I think, growing on the part of a number of 
different agencies in finding a way to put a park together 
there. 

I see our Agency, through the Division of Oil and 
Gas, the Coastal Conservancy, which is adjacent, and others 
being able to play a leadership role in helping to put this 
program together, but it will be a long-term effort. 

SENATOR HUGHES: It sounds very exciting to be 
able to announce something like that to my community, who has no 
access to any decent parks. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Teresa Hughes State Park. 

SENATOR HUGHES: No, it's already Kenny Hahn 
State Park. No way. I don't want a park named after me. I 
want the capital named after me. 

[ Laughter . ] 

SENATOR HUGHES: The last thing I want to mention 
to you is the fishing industry, and the fact that some 50 years 
ago, we were really high in the production of fish, and our 
catch is just 9.7 percent of the national total, not accounting 



41 

for Alaska and Hawaii. 

What are we going to do, or are you going to do 
to see that our fishing industry is revitalized, if anything? 

MS. NICHOLS: Yes, thank you for the question. 

Senator, the collapse of fisheries in this 
country and around the world is a serious international concern, 
and it*s a concern for the health and well being of the people 
of this planet. 

We in California do have a role to play because 
of our extensive stretch of coastline and the fisheries that we 
once supported and perhaps could support again. And there are a 
number of areas in which practices in the past, some of our 
degradation of habitat in the marine environment, have clearly 
played a role in the loss of fishing resources and of economic 
health to that industry and to our state as a whole. 

Thanks to some legislation passed last year, the 
Department of Fish and Game has a program to implement which 
involves doing surveys, and benchmarking, and studies, and 
developing plans, which we are to bring back to the Legislature 
in that area to try to see what the state can do. We already 
know that in the area of watershed management, loss of beaches 
and erosion, fallout of toxic chemicals both in the air and from 
water, there are programs that we should be implementing. These 
are laws that are already on the books that are not being 
adequately enforced. 

So, we've got a lot to do in that area, and then 
we need to do some more science to establish what the next 
stages should be. 



42 

SENATOR HUGHES: Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Baca, then Senator 
Knight. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you. 

A couple of questions. The Legislative Analysts 
reports that the maintenance need in the state parks have been 
underfunded since the early 1980s. 

What do you think should be done to address this 
problem? 

MS. NICHOLS: Senator, we have asked for 
additional resources in the Governor budget, and I believe that 
if the receipts come in as we're hoping, that the maintenance in 
the parks would be the first item in line for an augmentation in 
my Agency because that backlog is so severe. 

Looking towards the future, in the budget the 
Governor asked me to evaluate the potential for a park bond and 
the need for such a bond. I've been working with the Parks 
Department as well as other departments in our Agency and in 
Cal-EPA to identify what items are to be included in a broad 
resources bond. 

Again, the capital facilities in the parks, 
buildings as well as trails, are areas that I think would be 
appropriate to look at for bond funding as well. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you. 

The next one, Mary, as you know in my area, the 
Inland Empire, we've been infested with the sand high loving fly 
in the area that has cost millions and millions of dollars. We 
have the kangaroo rat in the immediate area. 



43 

What do you propose in addressing the problem 
that has really affected a lot of growth in the Inland Empire on 
these two endangered species that are in there, the fly and the 
kangaroo rat? 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Fly swatter. 

SENATOR BACA: I tried the fly swatter. 
[ Laughter . ] 

MS. NICHOLS: Senator, I'm not familiar with that 
particular issue about the fly, but I know something about the 
history on the kangaroo rats, and some of the problems that have 
been caused to local government and to developers in trying to 
deal with those issues. 

I guess maybe the best answer would be to say, 
first of all, on the specifics of that, I'd be happy to look 
into what there is that can be done in your particular district. 

On a broader issue, however, with the dozens and 
dozens of species that we have that are listed in California, I 
think that the approach that was begun under the Wilson 
administration to developing multi-species habitat conservation 
plans, and which has been a hallmark of the Clinton 
administration's approach to administering the federal 
Endangered Species Act, is one that we need to pursue here. 

We need to be looking at the role that government 
can play to help to assemble areas that are large enough in 
scale so that they can serve as habitat for a variety of 
different species, and so that we don't have to be dealing on a 
parcel-by-parcel, permit-by-permit basis with people who want to 
develop their land, and trying to, in effect, extract small bits 



44 

of land for the protection of endangered species. We know that 
that's not the best way to deal with the species or the habitat, 
and we also know that it's very time consuming and costly and 
burdensome to the private sector. 

So, we need to be working at a regional level 
with government and the private sector to look at where there's 
habitat that's needed, and how to as assemble it through a 
combination of public and private methods so that we can set 
aside a sufficient area so that we protect the biodiversity, 
which is important to California economically, as well as for 
tourism, and for our long-term future, but at the same time, not 
have to go through the kind of species-by-species programs that, 
I gather, is what happens with this fly. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you. I appreciate you 
taking the regional approach in looking at our area, and I hope 
that you address that, because that's one area in my area that 
I'm very much concerned with, especially with the fly right now 
that's right next to a beautiful hospital in the immediate area, 
and we've got a place that's in that area that has all kinds of 
weeds, and it looks terrible. Yet, this fly only comes out once 
a year or twice a year. It's because wind is blowing, it's 
coming to that immediate area. 

I think we need to address that and look at that 
as well as the kangaroo rat. So, I do appreciate the fact that 
you'll be looking into it. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: It's funny about a fly. We 
spend a whole lot of time about a fly. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: That's how you made your name. 



45 

[Laughter. ] 

SENATOR KNIGHT: I thought that's what we had fly 
swatters for. 

Some years ago, well, at the present time, the 
state ships their low- level radioactive waste to South 
Carolina. Some 20 years ago, the federal government said, 
"States, you can get together, form compacts and develop a 
low-level radioactive waste dump, if you will." 

We did that, or we tried to, and it was in the 
form of Ward Valley. There's been a lot of money spent in that 
arena, some 80 million by a company, some 15 million by the 
state, and dollars by local and private industry. 

We still don't have one. What are your plans, if 
any, to develop one, or to come up with another site, or to 
develop Ward Valley? 

MS. NICHOLS: Senator, I'm delighted to be able 
to tell you that the Resources Agency is not the responsible 
agency for dealing with this problem. It falls under the 
jurisdiction of the Department of Health Services. 

So, I can share on my colleague from a distance, 
but I'm not actually involved in that case or in the decision. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Not at all? I stand corrected, 
if that's the case. 

SENATOR LEWIS: What about the role of the State 
Lands Commission with Ward Valley? 

MS. NICHOLS: Well, the State Lands Commission, 
although they are technically a part of the Resources Agency, as 
you know, is governed by a group of Constitutional Officers. 



46 

They don't ask me what there policies ought to be. 

SENATOR LEWIS: What role do you play with the 
State Lands Commission? 

MS. NICHOLS: I don't have a role. I'm not on 
the State Lands Commission. They are technically housed in the 
Resources Agency, but I don't have a seat on it or an 
appointment on it. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Want to put her on it? 
[ Laughter . ] 

MS. NICHOLS: I'd definitely be open to 
discussing that. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Well, what do you think about 
that anyway? 

[Laughter. ] 

MS. NICHOLS: Do you really want to know what I 
think about low-level waste? 

I think a court has now ruled that the federal 
government doesn't have to turn it over, and the state is not to 
pursue it. 

May I say something. Senator, about low-level 
waste, which is just this. 

When I was at EPA, I did have some responsibility 
for the finding of sites is for high-level nuclear waste. We 
were successful in permitting a site. It's in New Mexico. It's 
in the salt caverns near Carlsbad, New Mexico. That site did 
come on line, and it is now actually open for waste to be 
delivered from federal facilities all over the country. 

I think there is a problem with waste disposal. 



47 

and there do need to be sites for disposal. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: We still need a low- level waste 
site. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Antelope Valley. 
[Laughter. ] 

SENATOR LEWIS: Treasure Island. 
[ Laughter . ] 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: As you go across the bridge, 
you'd see this wonderful glow. 

[ Laughter . ] 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Knight? 

SENATOR KNIGHT: I'm through. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Just a couple. 

You talked when the Governor talked to you about 
a broad resources bond, does that lead one to believe that there 
may be a combination, at least in his mind, of parks and water? 

MS. NICHOLS: I certainly think that's possible. 
As you know, the Commission I'm building for the 21st Century is 
examining this whole issue very broadly. There's a resources 
group on that Commission. They're meeting in my office this 
afternoon, actually, and I am laying out a list of potential 
areas. That does include both water and parks. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: What happened with, just to 
deal with a couple of things that Senator Lewis asked. 

As I understand it, the amended complaint, that 
issue lost in court; right? What happened to that? 

MS. NICHOLS: Are you speaking of the water case. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: The water deal. 



48 

MS. NICHOLS: Yes. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: I thought I read that the court 
rejected something? 

MS. NICHOLS: They rejected a motion for a TRO by 
the federal water contractors. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Then just, at least in my 
judgement, I think one of the reasons that the Governor talked 
about upping the surveillance, or whatever it will, in that 
region that included the Headwaters was the experience that the 
Wilson administration had with Herwitz's company as we were 
negotiating the Headwaters bill. We would be negotiating, and 
all of a sudden, they'd be in violation of the state forestry 
laws. 

I was down there with George Dunn. I mentioned 
it to George; he mentioned it to Governor Wilson, and he almost 
went. 

So, I think the deal at that time was that there 
was just a great concern that if a deal wasn't struck, that the 
company would be going huckelty-buck as it was to that area. 

I think you have members of your family you 
wanted to introduce? 

MS. NICHOLS: Thank you. Senator Burton. I just 
wanted to introduce to the Committee, since they have traveled 
to get here, my husband, John Daum, and my son, Nick Daum. My 
home is in Los Angeles, and I commute up here during the week. 
And my son Nick is a graduate student at UC Berkeley. 

Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Witnesses in support. 



49 

MR. ROSS: Mr. Chairman, Members, Tommy Ross on 
behalf of John Bryce, Chairman and CEO of Southern California. 

We believe Ms. Nichols would provide a balanced 
approach to her administration of her agency. We believe she's 
a person of character and sound and balanced judgment. 

And on a personal level, I just want you to know 
that I enjoy working with her and look forward to working with 
her throughout her tenure as Secretary of Resources. 

And we encourage your support of her 
appointment. 

MR. SMUTNEY- JONES : Thank you, Mr. President, 
Members of the Committee, my name is Jan Smutney- Jones . I 
represent the California Independent Energy Producers 
Association. We develop and operate power plants throughout 
California. 

We believe Ms. Nichols brings with her extensive 
knowledge and experience with respect to both natural resources 
and energy. We believe that she brings with her a sense of 
leadership from the standpoint of being able to make hard 
decisions and take accountability for them. We believe she's 
fundamentally fair in terms of the ability to listen to both 
sides and understand both sides of an issue. 

There's extensive work that continues to need to 
be done in California. As you know, we're going to see change 
right now with many of the utility resources being now operated 
by independent companies. We've got about 15,000 megawatts of 
new generation being built in California, including 500 
megawatts of new renewable that will be employing Californians 



50 

and helping meet our various air quality standards. 

We believe she's very, very well qualified for 
this position. We would encourage your support. 

Thank you. 

MR. PAULI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members of 
the Committee. I'm Bill Pauli. I'm a farmer from over in 
Mendocino County, and I'm President of the California Farm 
Bureau. 

I'm very pleased to be here today to support the 
confirmation of Mary Nichols. I've had an opportunity on a 
number of occasions to meet with Secretary Nichols, and I've had 
extensive discussions on a wide range of issues. I find her 
fair, articulate, intelligent, with a deep knowledge on a 
variety of issues. We would look forward to working her, and we 
would ask your confirmation of her as Secretary. 

Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: When did you have your first 
meeting her? After her appointment? 

MR. PAULI: Yes, sir. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Did your opinion kind change 
from when you read it to now? 

MR. PAULI: No. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: In other words, when she was 
appointed, you felt alright about her. 

MR. PAULI: Yes, I did. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Okay. 

MR. PAULI: And I still feel fine about it. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: I understand that. 



51 

I know some people said when they first read it, 
they kind of had a coronary. After they met with her, they 
found that she would do a good job, and that their 
preconceptions were wrong. 

MR. PAULI: I think, like a number of other 
people, I managed to maintain an open mind until I've had an 
opportunity to meet. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: You'd never make it on this 
Committee. 

[ Laughter . ] 

MR. PAULI: I'll look forward to the opportunity 
some day. 

MR. CRAVEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Bill Craven 
here on behalf of Sierra Club California. 

We supported the nomination of Mary Nichols. We 
strongly support her confirmation. She's extremely well 
qualified. 

We anticipate that she will provide outstanding 
leadership on a wide variety of natural resource issues over her 
term. Again, we support her confirmation. 

Thank you. 

MR. GUALCO: Mr. Chair and Members, Jack Gualco 
on behalf of the California Council for Environmental Economic 
Balance. 

Like the Farm Bureau, we did not check into the 
Coronary Unit after we heard of her appointment. We've had the 
good fortune of working closely with the Secretary in her 
previous incarnation here at the state, and also throughout her 



52 

career at US EPA. 

She has been fair. She's been at times tough, but 
we've always respected the relationship. And given the nature 
of a lot of the natural resource management debate right now in 
California, where the federal government plays a very large 
role. Secretary Nichols' experience at US EPA and understanding 
the federal way of doing things will be of tremendous help as 
California tries to work a lot of the tough water, natural 
resource issues through. 

So, we're very enthusiastic about Secretary 
Nichols' appointment and recommend her to you without any 
qualification. 

Thank you. 

MR. WEINER: Peter Weiner, Paul, Hastings, 
Janofsky & Walker. We represent renewable energy producers. 

I'm also personally a member of the State Parks 
Foundation Board of Directors, and I'm concerned with both 
maintenance of existing parks and acquisition of new parks, 
especially in urban areas. 

I've been a friend and colleague of Mary for over 
30 years, since law school, and give her my strong support. 
I've served with her in the Brown administration. I've watched 
her from afar while she's been at EPA. She is off-the-chart 
smart. She uses her smarts to listen, to get together with 
other people, to reach consensual solutions, to act decisively, 
and to act well. 

I urge your confirmation. 

MR. LEATHERS: Mr. Chairman and Members of the 



53 

Committee, Pat Leathers on behalf of the Wilson Group, Sun Made 
Growers of California, Southern California Rock Products 
Association, and others. But particularly myself and my father, 
Jim Leathers, who served with Mary some 20 years ago on the 
State Air Board. 

Mary wanted to know more about agriculture. She 
came out to the Leathers' farm. She drove a harvester, a lazer 
leveler. I don't think there were any accidents. 

She's terrific. She's open. She has the highest 
level of integrity and honesty, and we are proud to consider her 
a friend. 

Thank you. 

MR. BAKER: Mr. Chairman and Members, Steve Baker 
with Aaron Read and Associates, representing the CDF fire 
fighters and the California Association of Professional 
Scientists. 

Again, we have a lot of the employees that are in 
this Agency, and they are really looking forward to having 
Secretary Nichols there, providing leadership and working with 
the employees to implement the state's laws. 

Thank you. 

MS. NOTTHOFF: Ann Notthoff with the Natural 
Resources Defense Council. 

I had the pleasure of working with Mary as a 
colleague when we were both working for NRDC. She in Los 
Angeles, me in San Francisco. We worked on many issues 
together . 

I personally admire the grace with which she 



54 

approaches issues, and I'm very pleased to support her 
confirmation. 

MR. MACOLA: Mr. Chairman, Stephen Macola on 
behalf of Moulden Nigel Water District in support. 

I might also add, I had the privilege of serving 
this body as the Staff Director to the Senate Committee on 
Agriculture and Water Resources for 20 years. 

I personally recommend Mary without 
qualification. 

MR. JUDD: Mr. Chairman, Bob Judd of the 
California Biomass Energy Alliance. 

In light of Secretary Nichols' consistent record 
of achievement and integrity, her insight into the relationship 
between federal and state issues that we'll face here, we offer 
her our full endorsement. 

MR. HERBST: Good morning, Mr. President, 
Senators. My name is David Herbst. I am Vice President of 
Playa Vista, a major infill real estate development in West Los 
Angeles. 

I'm here today to strongly encourage you to 
confirm Mary Nichols as Secretary of the Resources Agency. Mary 
has long demonstrated in her various careers with NRDC, EPA, and 
Environment Now not only a commitment to environmental and 
resource protection, but also a fairness an even-handedness to 
all parties involved in an issue. This judicial temperament has 
been particularly evident with her involvement with us at Playa 
Vista. 

The qualities she exhibited in our interactions 



55 

with her — intelligence, open-mindedness , fairness, and a 
willingness to listen to both sides of an issue — are the very 
same qualities that we believe will make her an outstanding 
Resources Agency Secretary. 

We look forward to Mary's confirmation, and her 
ongoing resource protection leadership in California. 

Thank you. 

MR. ALEMAN: Mr. President, Senators, my name is 
Arturo Aleman, and I represent several organizations. Latino 
organizations from throughout the state, primarily the 
California Chicano/Latino Democratic Caucus, whom I'm sure 
you're all very much aware of, and also the National Hispanic 
Recreation Association, which is an association of managers and 
administrators in the field of recreation. And also, of course, 
the National Hispanic Energy and Environmental Conference, which 
is going to be held in San Jose this month. 

I'd like to extend an invitation to that. 

We'd like to, as a group, request that you 
confirm Mary Nichols as the Resources Secretary. We very much 
endorse her. We have met with her, and we hope and understand 
that she will be bringing greater diversity to an agency that 
very much needs it. We look forward to your confirmation. 

Thank you. 

MS. SCHMIECHEN: Mr. Chair and Committee Members, 
Kathie Schmiechen, National Audubon Society. 

We urge your confirmation vote. We're very happy 
with how Ms. Nichols has already reached out to National Audubon 
and other groups so far. 



56 

Thank you. 

MS. DINNO: Good morning. Rachel Dinno with the 
Planning and Conservation League, thrilled and honored to be 
here in support of, hopefully, Secretary Nichols today. 

We need her leadership for the restoration land 
enhancement of our ' s state resources. We urge your approval. 

Thank you. 

MR. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Members 
of the Committee, Corey Brown, Trust for Public Land, strongly 
in support. 

When we established our Los Angeles office to 
help address some of the issues Senator Hughes mentioned in 
terms of bringing parks to our urban areas, especially our 
underserved areas, we very much appreciated Ms. Nichols' counsel 
and her support. 

She has a great vision for California. We think 
it'll help our cities; it will help our rural areas greatly. We 
urge your confirmation. 

MR. RICHARD: Mr. Chairman and Members, Dan 
Richard, PG&E. I'm a long-time friend of Mary Nichols. I 
admire her commitment to public service. 

I can't resist saying that I didn't a coronary 
when I read of her appointment, but my heart skipped a beat. I 
thought it was a terrific appointment. 

MR. WHITE: Mr. Chair and Members, John White 
with the Center for Energy Efficiency and Renewable 
Technologies, which is a coalition of environmental groups and 
renewable and energy efficiency companies. 



57 

Mary is a former board member of our organization 
and worked closely with us in trying to recapture California's 
leadership on renewable energy and clean power. We look forward 
to working with her in her new capacity as the Secretary of 
Resources . 

SENATOR BACA: Mr. Chair, I move her nomination. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Witnesses in opposition. 

Moved by Senator Baca. 

I wanted to ask one question, if I could. 

There was a question that the Republicans had. 
It's the fact about the $540 million to foster renewable energy 
technology that was in the energy dereg. bill. 

I go back to during the Brown administration, 
where I basically thought a lot of the wind, a lot of the solar, 
and a lot of stuff was absolutely tax ripoffs and didn't do 
much. 

I mean, I'm just wondering if there will be a 
tighter hold on this. I don't know if you're if one who knows 
how this goes out. But I mean, some of the wind stuff was an 
absolute scandal as far as the tax benefits that went in. Some 
of the solar stuff I kind of felt the same way. I think studies 
indicated that the amount of money that went out for the benefit 
that came in was that. 

So, I would just hope, and I guess it's more of a 
comment than a question, but that we have a very tighter hold on 
who gets the benefits for this, and that society gets the 
benefit back for the burden they're doing, because this money's 
coming out of somebody's pocket. 



58 

Moved by Senator Baca. Call the roll. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Mr. Chairman, if I could just 
make a quick comment. 

Up until today I have voted yes on all the 
gubernatorial appointments simply because I think a governor 
should have the right to choose the cabinet of his liking. 

Ms. Nichols is intelligent. She's articulate. 

But despite that, I have grave concerns about 
what kind of regulations, and perhaps regulatory overkill, may 
take place on her watch. 

Today I'm going to vote no, but I certainly hope 
that Ms. Nichols will prove that my no vote in the future was 
wrong thing to do. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Call the roll. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Baca Aye. Senator Hughes. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Hughes Aye. Senator Knight. 
Senator Lewis. 

SENATOR LEWIS: No. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Lewis No. Senator Burton. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Burton Aye. Three to one. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Congratulations, Mary. 

MS. NICHOLS: Thank you. 

[Thereupon this portion of the 

Senate Rules Committee hearing was 



59 



terminated at approximately 11:06 A.M.] 
— ooOoo — 



60 

CERTIFICATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER 

I, EVELYN J. MIZAK, a Shorthand Reporter of the State 
of California, do hereby certify: 

That I am a disinterested person herein; that the 
foregoing transcript of the Senate Rules Committee hearing was 
reported verbatim in shorthand by me, Evelyn J. Mizak, and 
thereafter transcribed into typewriting. 

I further certify that I am not of counsel or 
attorney for any of the parties to said hearing, nor in any way 
interested in the outcome of said hearing. 

^ IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this 
/ Cp day of /vJ>^ , 1999. 



rzAK 3 

Shorthand Reporter 




370-R 

Additional copies of this publication may be purchased for $3.75 per copy 
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^HEARING 

SENATE RULES COMMITTEE 



STATE OF CALIFORNIA 




DOCUMENTS DEPT. 
JUN 1 4 tec9 

SAN FRANCISCO 
PUBLIC LIBRARY 



STATE CAPITOL 

ROOM 113 

SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA 

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 21, 1999 
9:35 A.M. 



371 -R 



SENATE RULES COMMITTEE 
STATE OF CALIFORNIA 



HEARING 



STATE CAPITOL 

ROOM 113 

SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA 



WEDNESDAY, APRIL 21, 1999 
9:35 A.M. 



Reported by 



Evelyn J. Mizak 
Shorthand Reporter 



11 



APPEARANCES 

MEMBERS PRESENT 
SENATOR JOHN BURTON, Chair 
SENATOR JOHN LEWIS, Vice Chair 
SENATOR JOE BACA 
SENATOR WILLIAM KNIGHT 

MEMBERS ABSENT 

SENATOR TERESA HUGHES 

STAFF PRESENT 

GREG SCHMIDT, Executive Officer 

PAT WEBB, Committee Secretary 

NETTIE SABELHAUS, Consultant on Governor's Appointments 

WADE TEASDALE, Consultant to SENATOR LEWIS 

ANDY PUGNO, Consultant to SENATOR KNIGHT 

MANNY HERNANDEZ, Consultant to SENATOR BACA 

ALSO PRESENT 

ELIAS S. CORTEZ, Director 
Department of Information Technology 

ASSEMBLYMAN JOHN DUTRA 

BENNY DIAZ, State Membership Chair 

League of United Latin American Citizens (LULAC) 

MARIA GUTIERREZ, Local Youth Director 
LULAC 

KARIME SANCHEZ BRADVICA, Chair 

use Mexican-American Alumni Association 

EDMUNDO LOPEZ, President 
Hispanic Contractors Association 



Ill 



FRANK RAMIREZ, Representative of National Commander 
American G.I. Forum 

GRISELDA BARAJAS 

U.S. Hispanic Chamber of Commerce 

JOSE PEREZ 

California Hispanic Chambers of Commerce 

Sacramento Hispanic Chamber of Commerce 

ALAN COX, National Director, Government Services 
Government Technology 

JIM KONANTZ, Director of Instructional Technology- 
Los Angeles Unified School District 

Jim BRAINARD, Chief Information Officer 
City of Los Angeles 
Department of Water and Power 

ROGER TALAMONTEZ, President and CEO 
San Diego Data Processing Corporation 
City of San Diego 

JOHN FREEDMAN, Council Member 
City of Redlands 



IV 

INDEX 

Page 
Proceedings 1 

Governor ' s Appointees : 

Introduction and Support by 

SENATOR JOE BACA 1 

Background and Experience 2 

Questions by CHAIRMAN BURTON re: 

Targeting Y2K Problem 5 

Which Agencies Have Most Problems 6 

Support Statement by 

ASSEMBLYMAN JOHN DUTRA 7 

Questions by SENATOR LEWIS re: 

Biggest Y2K Problem Might Be 

From People Taking Preventative Actions 8 

Mission Critical Services 10 

Questions by SENATOR KNIGHT re: 

Simulations for Y2K 13 

Success of CHP Simulation 13 

Number of Compliant Department which 

Have Completed Simulations 14 

Any Significant Departments Which 

Are Not Compliant 14 

Questions by SENATOR BACA re: 

Ability to Get State's Information 

Systems Ready for Year 2000 15 

Vision for Improving the Informational 

System for State Government 16 



Motion to Confirm 16 

Questions by CHAIRMAN BURTON re: 

Y2K Compliance Is at 75 Percent 

For All State Departments 17 

Assurance that Legislative Counsel 

Will Be in Y2K Compliance 17 

Witnesses in Support: 

BENNY DIAZ, State Membership Chair 

League of United Latin American Citizens 17 

MARIA GUTIERREZ, Youth Director 

League of United Latin American Citizens 18 

KARIME SANCHEZ BRADVICA, Chair 

use Mexican- American Al'umni Association 18 

ELMUNDO LOPEZ, President 

Hispanic Contractors Association 19 

FRANK RAMIREZ 

American G.I. Forum 19 

GRISELDA BARAJAS 

U.S. Hispanic Chamber of Commerce 2 

JOSE PEREZ 

California Hispanic Chambers of Commerce 

Sacramento Hispanic Chamber of Commerce 20 

ALAN COX, National Director 

Government Services 

Government Technology 21 

JIM KONANTZ, Director 

Instructional Technology 

Los Angeles Unified School District 22 

JIM BRAINARD, Chief Information Officer 

City of Los Angeles 

Department of Water and Power 22 



VI 



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ROGER TALAMONTEZ, President and CEO 

San Diego Data Processing Corporation 23 

JOHN FREEDMAN, Council Member 

City of Redlands 23 

Committee Action 24 

Termination of Proceedings 24 

Certificate of Reporter 25 



P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 
— ooOoo — 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Elias Cortez, Director of 
Information Technology. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Members. 

I'm pleased to introduce one of my constituents, 
Elias Cortez, who has been appointed to lead the Department of 
Information Technology at a time when leadership is truly 
needed . 

Elias is dedicated, very capable, result oriented 
technology leader. Previously he served as Chief Information 
Officer for San Bernardino County. While at the County, he 
ensured that the department was focused on meeting the Y2K 
challenge by encouraging and collaborating internally and 
externally. 

He has also made sure that the community was 
informed on the subject by holding outreach forums, and 
working, and informing the community, which the community really 
appreciated in the Inland Empire, because he was truly reaching 
out. And that's part of what he's done through his leadership 
and his vision to assure that we're moving in the right 
direction. 

He is dedicated to the community, and his focus 
is result oriented. I think that we believe we have made an 
excellent choice in having Elias Cortez lead us into the state's 
technology department into the 21st Century. 

I'd like to introduce Elias Cortez so that. 



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hopefully, the Committee will confirm his appointment, which I 
think is a positive direction in leading us into the 21st 
Century, Elias Cortez. 

MR. CORTEZ: Thank you, Senator Baca. 

Honorable Chairman, honorable Senators, I thank 
you for this opportunity to come before in this confirmation 
hearing. I feel privileged and honored to be considered for the 
State Chief Information Officer position and appointment for the 
State of California. 

I'm also proud to have with me today my wife, 
Patricia, and daughters Raquel, Elisa, and Salina with me 
today. 

In addition, I am grateful and thankful for my 
friends that are joining us today for joining us in this 
commitment to be here in support of my efforts. 

I'd like to briefly share with you that I am 
proud to be a Californian. I was born in Southern California, 
born and raised. I think I've lived throughout the different 
cities and communities of this state, including Tulare, all the 
way down to San Diego. 

I'm also proud to have attended USC and am 
involved in the community, not only through my school, but 
involved in the community in San Bernardino. I'm a part member 
of the Board for Masters of Technology at the Redlands 
University. So, I'm very involved with education initiatives, 
and also involved with government and local government support. 

My professional background is quite expansive. 
I've been grateful and honored to have had the opportunity to 



work all the way from the technical applications development 
positions and work my way up through middle management and upper 
management . 

I've led major information technology initiatives 
within institutions such as L.A. Unified School District, in 
which we established one of the largest educational Internet 
access for students, administrators and teachers. We had some 
major successful accomplishments also in geographic information 
systems, which is a very important tool for analyzing government 
resources and distribution of government services to the 
community. 

I've also had the gracious opportunity to be a 
chief information officer, similar to the current position, but 
a different scope and scale at the County of San Bernardino. 
We've got great support, great leadership in that county, and we 
did a very good job in challenging and dealing with the Y2K 
issues. 

One of my proudest achievements throughout my 
background in this information technology is that wherever I've 
gone, wherever I've progressed, I build solid teams of people. 
I invest heavily in training, and management, and strategy, and 
visionary issues of implementing new technologies to solving 
government challenges and problems. 

I've been also proud to stay involved with other 
entities that relate to my personal career, such as Hispanic 
professional engineering organizations within the community. 

And I really am proud to be here today and have 
the opportunity to take on this challenge. I believe it's a 



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formidable challenge, but it's a manageable challenge. I'm very 
happy to see that the people that I've met with are extremely 
professional, and there are quite a few skills and professionals 
in this organization in the state that have done a very good job 
to date in working on this whole Year 2000 challenge, 

I think with the added value that I bring to the 
organization, its leadership, focus, prioritization, and really 
a global perspective on all the issues, not only internally 
within state departments, but how we distribute our services to 
the community, and I believe that's an asset that I bring to the 
table, especially in the area of the Year 2000 challenge. 

We have a lot of interface issues with counties 
and local government. And I've been working aggressively in 
making sure that we not only manage and streamline processes 
within the state to deliver those services, but we also get out 
there and reach within the community and get involved with the 
interface issues between counties and governments so we can 
deliver the services to the community into the next millennium. 

I've been focused not only on internal issues and 
challenges, but also external issues relative to our state 
services that we provide. And I've been working aggressively 
with organizations such as CSAC, and League of Cities and others 
to embark on the challenge that we need to get executive 
management support globally within our state to deal with this 
Year 2 000 challenge. 

I ' ve met with the CIOs , I meet with agency CIOs 
within our state departments. I meet with them bi-weekly. We've 
delivered to them through the Department of Information 



Technology strategy. We've delivered approaches. We've 
delivered methodology. We're delivering basic leadership in the 
area of what our priorities are to meet this challenge. 

Our outreach efforts will be constant. Our 
awareness program will increase. We're doing what it takes to 
get the job done. And we expect to manage through any 
challenges or issues that come up via the process that we're 
establishing, which we call Business Continuity Planning. So, 
if there are any challenges or any hiccups going into the next 
millennium, we are currently aggressively pursuing that each 
department, each director, each CIO establish and develop a 
contingency plan for those issues. 

Again, I thank you for this opportunity to 
present to you. If approved by the Rules Committee today, I 
will continue to focus and be diligent and dedicate myself 
totally to delivering the best technology management to our 
state. 

Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Thank you. 

Just briefly on the ever present, at least in 
people's minds, the Y2K problem. The State Auditor seemed to be 
on lot more concerned about what was going on than the report of 
your predecessor. 

I wonder just briefly, do you think you're on 
target? Do you need some more help? What do we need to make 
sure that this either works as perfectly as it can, or at least 
so there's not a disaster? Do you think that everything's on 
target? 



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One further thing. Which areas, which 
governmental agencies do you think face the most problems? 

MR. CORTEZ: Thank you. 

First and foremost, the Y2K Executive Order 
speaks to the challenge before us and the environment that we 
have to deliver the solutions to meet these Y2K issues and 
challenges. 

It's extremely important to note that a quote 
that I read in college was, "No man is an island upon himself." 
So, Eli's not going to solve this Y2K challenge. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Do you know who said that? John 
Donne. 

MR. CORTEZ: Therefore, I believe that 
establishing a team to meet these challenges is first and 
foremost critical. I've aggressively pursued the support of my 
peers, secretary agencies, directors and CIOs to focus on what 
is left to be done, and immediately in parallel, established 
business continuity plans to deal with any challenges that might 
be unexpected. 

We do have an opportunity to meet the challenges 
of all mission critical systems. We have the resources within 
our organization to challenge those and to meet those 
challenges. 

Again, it has to do with refocusing our 
priorities, and we are extremely aggressive about 
re-establishing that priority. 

One of the challenges when I came on, on my first 
day of February 17th, I clearly remember that day when the DOIT 



report was presented in the afternoon. It seemed like a 
topsy-turvy presentation opposite reporting in the afternoon. 
The bottom line, as I stated then, is that the reporting that 
was going on previously was soft reporting. So, if I was in 
Department A, you could ask me how I was doing. And if I was 
depending on future funding, I'd tell you I was doing a great 
job. 

Bottom line, though, what we've done is, we've 
re-engineered the way we're handling this project. We've 
established a process which we call Detailed Department 
Assessment Analysis. We're analyzing exactly where each 
department is. We're analyzing what the mission critical issues 
are. We're immediately providing resolution of services and 
vendors and resources within the state first. If we have to 
out-source for specialty support, then that would be next. And 
we are working in parallel in establishing a contingency plan 
with the Office of Emergency Services. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: So, what do you think? 

MR. CORTEZ: I feel comfortable that we're going 
to meet the challenges of critical systems. 

ASSEMBLYMAN DUTRA: Thank you. Chairman Burton, 
Members of the Committee. My name is Assembly Member Dutra. 

I'm Chair of Info. Technology in the Assembly, 
and I've had the privilege and opportunity to work very closely 
with Mr. Cortez in recent months. He has contributed enormously 
to our efforts with respect to a Y2K bill that was triple 
referred, that just got out of all three committees with only 
one unfavorable vote. 



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8 

He's participated in the participation of that 
bill. He, in these hearings, has evidenced a level of 
capability and management skill to me that is very, very 
impressive. 

And I do have business experience before coming 
to the Assembly. 

There is no doubt in my mind that he would 
contribute enormously to the state as Director of the Department 
of Information Technology. I highly encourage his 
confirmation. I certainly support it. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Thank you very much. 

Senator Lewis. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Good morning, Mr. Cortez. 

When Dallas Jones was before this Committee, the 
Director of OES, he seemed rather skeptical of the Y2K problem. 
In fact, he said that the biggest problem associated with Y2K 
would be the unintended consequences of people taking 
preventative actions. 

Do you share that general belief? 

MR. CORTEZ: My belief is, within the state, 
within the leadership of this administration, within the 
leadership of the secretary agencies, there is full focus on the 
Y2K challenge, the priorities, the escalation of resources that 
we're going to need to meet this challenge. 

I strongly believe, and have worked with Dallas 
jointly. We've had a very successful presentation recently 
where we've invited a thousand different attendees to a 
Conference here in Sacramento regarding business continuity 



planning throughout the Y2K, and it included, happily, a lot of 
community involvement, a lot of small business involvement, and 
a lot of local government involvement. 

I feel comfortable that we're going to meet this 
challenge. I feel real comfortable in the area of other 
organizations, such as the FAA having recent successful tests. 
Other organizations, such as NERC have done very successful 
tests in these areas. 

So, I think a lot of what needs to be managed 
over the next few months has to do with completing the tasks 
that are mission critical priority. Get those done. In 
parallel, establish business continuity plans to deal with any 
challenges that might occur. 

So, I believe in discussions that I've had with 
Dallas Jones that he is focused on that, and he feels confident 
that we're going to deliver this service. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Let me kind of repeat the 
question. 

Do you believe that the number one problem 
confronting the state dealing with Y2K is the unintended 
consequences of people taking preventative action? 

MR. CORTEZ: I believe — 

SENATOR LEWIS: When Dallas Jones was before the 
Committee, he said the biggest problem associated with Y2K would 
be those problems associated with people rationing, I mean 
accumulating, hoarding, and things like that. 

Is that the biggest problem we face? 

MR. CORTEZ: I think that's one of the problems. 



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I think the other challenges that we have that I've been very 
focused on is management of impacts that might occur. So, for 
example, in a normal year like last New Year's Eve, if you lost 
power in a small community or whatever, they would say, well, 
someone probably hit light pole and knocked it out, and there 
goes the power for us. But if that happens in this window, in 
this opportunity, somebody's going to blame that on Y2K, even 
though someone might have just knocked out the power. 

So, I believe that management of occurrences and 
factual information is really the challenge that we have. I 
believe that the hoarding isn't as big of a problem as it's been 
portrayed. I believe that the community, through awareness 
programs, is getting a better feel and understanding where 
they're at, especially when you complete different tests that 
impact the community, areas in power, light, 
telecommunications. 

I've met with these organizations, and I've been 
meeting with them constantly about their plans. And through 
their billing systems, they're promoting not only status of 
their Y2K challenge, but appeasing the community, in that they 
are going to receive light, that they are going to receive 
power. 

So, I truly believe that hoarding is not the 
biggest problem. I think the biggest problem is understanding 
that we've met the challenge. 

SENATOR LEWIS: In the context of your position, 
how do you define mission critical? 

MR. CORTEZ: Mission critical systems. 



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SENATOR LEWIS: Mission critical service; I'm 
sorry . 

MR. CORTEZ: Mission critical services. 

To us at the state, we've focused and define on 
public safety, life and health. Anything that would impact the 
delivery of those services. 

We're not only looking at it from the perspective 
of information systems and exchange of data, but we're looking 
at it on how we deliver those services to the community. 

For example, if you have Highway Patrol, we want 
to make sure that the telecommunications channels that they have 
through their 9-1-1 systems, through their telecommunications 
systems, through their radio systems, are Y2K compliant. That 
is the top priority for us. 

So, we're focusing it from the perspective of 
services that we deliver, and we're re-engineering that back to 
the systems that we have to support those services. 

SENATOR LEWIS: At this moment in time, what 
state agencies would you say are the most behind? 

MR. CORTEZ: Right now, we've done recent 
assessments. I can't tell you over-all, but the recent 
assessments that reflect the studies that we've done, we've 
shown that they're fairly well along the way in areas such as 
the main frames. Most of them have met that challenge, which is 
typically the biggest area to deal with. 

There are departments, such as — the ones that 
we've done are: DMV, Department of Health Services, 
Corrections. In the area of the Department of Health Services, 



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Department of Social Services, we have concerns because there is 
a direct correlation of delivery of services all the way through 
the community through the county systems. One of the things 
that I'm concerned about is that we need to enact immediately 
support from the counties and the state in conjunction to deal 
with the interface issues. 

So, the challenges aren't really in the main 
frame systems. They're in how we exchange data and services 
between the state and the counties. I think that is the 
challenge before us. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Is there a particular state 
agency that seems to be the farthest behind right now? 

MR. CORTEZ: At this point, they're all 
approximately 70 percent complete. 

I think relative to focus, one of the recent 
experiences that we had in certain departments, we had 
experiences in which they did not have the expertise internally 
to do imbedded chips, as an example. 

But the good news in that area is, we're finding 
that imbedded chips take a long time to go out and figure out, 
and test each one, but the impact is very small. So, we feel 
comfortable that we're going to meet those challenges, and we're 
prioritizing with those departments. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Thanks. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Knight then Baca. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Just a little follow-up. There's been indication 
that 75 percent of the programs have been Y2K compliant; there's 



13 

25 percent that aren't. 

Of those 75 percent that have complied, and 
you've indicated that CHP is one of those in their 
communications and 9-1-1, have you simulated the Year 2000 and 
tried to demonstrate that, in fact, they have been corrected? 

MR. CORTEZ: Yes, that simulation is methodology 
that most the state departments are using. We haven't found 
one, and we are looking at that through our — 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Has the CHP been simulated, and 
does it work? 

MR. CORTEZ: Yes. They're doing testing into the 
Year 2000. They're emulating that testing, so they've done 
that. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: They have completed it? 

MR. CORTEZ: I believe so, yes. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Of the 75 percent that are Y2K 
compliant, how many of those have completed their simulation? 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Excuse me. 

Senator Lewis has to go to E&R. He would like to 
open the roll so he could recorded on this, and the Consent 
Calendar. 

SENATOR BACA: Move the nomination. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Just open the roll for Senator 



Lewis. 



SECRETARY WEBB: Senator Lewis? 

SENATOR LEWIS: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Lewis Aye. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Thank you, and the Consent 



14 

Calendar is already recorded. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: I don't know whether you've 
completed or not, but of the 75 percent, how many of them have 
completed their simulations? 

MR. CORTEZ: All departments that have reported 
to us so far have completed that process. We do expect a few 
departments that might not have that process completed. 

We have established what we call an Event 
Management Center, in which we have created an environment for 
any departments who have not done that. We can run it through 
that system. 

So, We we've got our backup plan for any 
departments that we find that don't have that methodology in 
place today. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Are there any significant 
departments, organizations, et cetera, that are in that 25 
percent that are noncompliant right now? 

MR. CORTEZ: No. Again, one of the findings in 
the preliminary findings for the detailed department 
assessments, we went first to look at the top 30 complex, 
largest departments that have the largest impact to the state 
services that we deliver. In that group, we don't expect to 
find that. 

Again, the current findings reflect that all the 
systems, those mission critical main frame systems, are very 
well under way, have been tested. 

The errors that we do see room for improvement is 
in the area of the imbedded chip in the areas of business 



15 

continuity planning. And in some cases, there are specific 
needs for specialty either hardware or software that needs to be 
updated. We're aggressively pursuing streamlining processes 
within the Department of Information Technology, the Department 
of Finance, and the LAO to get resources allocated to those 
departments . 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 

Mr. Cortez, in your local area, you've earned an 
A for getting the information system ready for the Year 2000. 
Can you do the same for the state? 

MR. CORTEZ: Again, as I mentioned earlier, "No 
man is an island upon himself." So, it's going to take a team 
of us to get that A, and that's how we got the A in the county. 
I had top executive support. We had executive commitment from 
all the middle management teams, and then we had a very, very 
specialized, organized team within our Y2K technology group. 

We also had supplemented that group with external 
support from specialty vendors, and I think we've established 
the same methodology here. One of the challenges that we have 
here, again, is, we've got 121 departments to get focused in the 
right direction. 

The solution is in place. We've met with the 
CIOs. We've oriented them to our methodology. We've trained 
them. They're aggressively looking in those areas. Again, I 
hope not only so we get support from these middle management 
types of staff, but definitely we're going to look to the 
legislative branch for leadership in the areas of supporting 



16 

bills that will allow us to provide communications to the 
public, that will allow us to establish a movement of resources 
within the state, and other such legislative support that we're 
going to need. 

SENATOR BACA: You may have answered the 
following question, but in recent years, there have been major 
problems with information systems, especially as it pertained to 
the DMV, as only one example. 

What is your vision for improving the 
informational system for state government? 

MR. CORTEZ: One of the immediate concerns that I 
had walking in is to establish what we have called a Statewide 
Project Management Office. The objective of that is to 
establish formalized project management which helps us hold our 
deliverables accountable, to be within budget, within scope, and 
on time. 

We've expanded that program. We're using 
expertise from the world's leader in this area, Deloite & 
Touche, and they've really established not only a program to 
help us refocus our Y2K, but to help us provide skills transfer 
and training to our staff so that we not only get ready for the 
Y2K challenge, but we also get ready beyond Y2K and deal with 
major technology initiatives in the future. 

SENATOR BACA: I move the confirmation, 
Mr. Chairman. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: I just have one clarifying 
question. 

The 75 percent, is the total deal 75 percent 



17 

completed, or are 75 percent of the departments 100 percent 
completed? 

What I thought I heard, different than Senator 
Knight, is that basically the total package is about 75 percent 
on the way there, as opposed to just 75 percent of the 
departments . 

MR. CORTEZ: Yeah, I think the total workload for 
the state, we're at about 75 percent, but we are finding some 
departments that are less than that. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: One other thing. 

Have you taken a look at our Legislative Counsel 
to see that, when it's all over, we live and die by them as 
opposed to all these other agencies. Have you got somebody 
watching that one? 

MR. CORTEZ: Yes, we're doing that. We have a 
legislative team in place, yes, sir. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Moved by Senator Baca. 

Witnesses in support. Come forward, please. 
Just give, I think, briefly your names. The babies are getting 
anxious out there, so we don't want to take up too much of the 
mother's time. 

MR. DIAZ: Honorable John Burton and honorable 
Members of the Senate and the Committee, my name is Benny Diaz. 
I represent the League of United Latin American Citizens, well 
known as LULAC. We are the largest Latino organization in the 
United States and in California. 

It is our most sincere pleasure to endorse 
Mr. Elias Cortez to the position of Director of the Department 



18 

of Information Technology. LULAC believes that Mr. Cortez ' 
professional experience and community involvement are assets to 
the State of California. 

I must also make a special remark that his 
community involvement is an example, and by saying that I mean 
that he's making a lot of difference in the Latino community by 
helping the Latino students to realize how important it is to 
have communications, computers. I think that the support that 
Mr. Cortez has provided to the community is something that we 
LULACers believe is important. 

And we, again, just wanted to be brief, and 
please accept the endorsement of Mr. Cortez as the Director of 
Communications . 

MS. GUTIERREZ: My name Maria Gutierrez, and also 
I'm here with LULAC. I'm am the local Youth Director for 
LULAC. I represent LULAC as the State Capitol liaison and also 
as Deputy State Director for Women. 

I'm here also to support this nomination. Thank 
you. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you very much. If each of 
the witnesses can just be very short and brief, introduce 
yourself, and just be brief in your comments. 

Thank you. 

MS. BRADVICA: Good morning, honorable Senators. 
My name is Karime Sanchez Bradvica, and I'm here to express my 
support for Mr. Elias Cortez' confirmation. 

I am currently the Chairwoman of the Board of the 
use Mexican-American Alumni Association. 



19 

And I can tell you that we are all very proud to 
claim Elias Cortez as a fellow Trojan. He has exhibited what 
the organization stands for, and that is education, commitment, 
integrity, hard work, ethical behavior, and success. I believe 
that he will be an asset to the Governor's staff, and a strong 
and dedicated public servant. 

I therefore urge all of you to vote yes and 
confirm Mr. Cortez. 

Thank you. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you. 

MR. LOPEZ: Good morning. Committee Members. My 
name is Elmundo Lopez. I'm here as a small business owner and 
as the President of the Hispanic Contractors Association. 

I'm here in support of Mr. Cortez for the 
position of Director of the Office of Information Technology. 

Mr. Cortez has the experience, the skills, the 
knowledge, and background to guide California through the Y2K 
challenge. We in business are very, very concerned about that, 
especially if it comes to making payments on time and things. 

California will be in good hands with Mr. Cortez, 
and we urge you to please endorse his confirmation. 

Thank you very much. 

SENATOR BACA: Thanks. 

MR. RAMIREZ: Good morning. Senators. My name is 
Frank Ramirez. I come in support of the confirmation of 
Mr. Elias Cortez. I'm a representative of the National 
Commander of the American G.I. Forum, Mr. Francisco Ybarra. 
Mr. Ybarra is a highly decorated combat vet. Understands the 



20 

importance of team work and discipline. 

And with that as the background, he sends his 
endorsement of Mr. Elias Cortez. 

Number two, I'm the Director of the Office of 
Community Relations for the California State University system, 
and I'd like to just very quickly comment on Mr. Cortez' vision, 
leadership, knowledge and skills. 

Early on, he came to the California State 
University system, enlisted us in helping with the Y2K effort in 
communicating with the communities, local, state, federal, 
special districts, police departments, fire departments, public 
works. Did a great job at Sac. State with about a thousand 
participants, and is putting together at four additional 
university campuses a similar type of program. 

Again, we strongly endorse the confirmation of 
Mr. Elias Cortez. Gracias. 

MS. BARAJAS: Good morning. My name is Griselda 
Barajas, and I'm here on behalf the U.S. Hispanic Chamber of 
Commerce also as a small business owner. 

We are here to show support on behalf of Mr. 
Cortez . 

Thank you. 

MR. PEREZ: I'm Jose Perez, and I'm here 
representing the California Hispanic Chambers of Commerce. We 
have 53 chambers throughout the State of California with about 
15,000 members. 

I'm also here representing the Sacramento 
Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, since I'm the President-elect of 



21 

that organization. 

We believe that the stewardship of the public 
resources dedicated to information technology and information 
management is very important. Mr. Cortez, we believe, brings 
forth the caliber, the breadth and depth of experience that we 
think will make an exceptional steward of public resources and 
management of that information technology. 

So, we strongly support his nomination and urge 
an aye vote. 

Thank you. 

MR. COX: Good morning. My name is Alan Cox. I'm 
the National Director of Government Services for Government 
Technology, the publisher of Government Technology magazine and 
the producer of the Government Technology Conferences. 

I'm honored to be associated with Elias Cortez, 
and I'm very happy to speak on his behalf. 

For some time my organization has written on the 
subject of information technology as it applies in government. 
And we've come to find that two of the most important things 
that can be done by an executive in this area for government are 
communication and collaboration. 

And in that manner, Mr. Cortez came to my 
organization and asked for our assistance. We produce a 
conference here which thousands of State of California 
employees, thousands of county workers, thousands of local 
government employees, come to learn about technology and its use 
in government. 

He sought our assistance in the Year 2000 



22 

preparedness efforts, and he has helped us remodel our 
conference to ensure that the State of California and the local 
governments in California are getting the education that they 
need to complete their preparedness efforts. 

He's also reached out to the counties directly by 
attending the recent County CIO Conference in Southern 
California, where he addressed directly 42 of the 48 counties. 
He's met with the Board of Directors of the California State 
Association of Counties. It's these type of efforts of outreach 
and collaboration that will really be the keys to success, and 
have been shown to be the keys to success in any technology 
project in government. 

So, I do encourage you to give him your support. 

Thank you very much. 

MR. KONANTZ: Good morning. My name is Jim 
Konantz. I'm the Director of Instructional Technology for Los 
Angeles Unified School District. 

I'm here to support Mr. Cortez ' appointment to 
the Chief Administrative Officer for Technology in the State of 
California. I'm here in support of Mr. Cortez because of his 
outstanding outreach and concern about technology education for 
all the students in the State of California. 

Thank you. 

MR. BRAINARD: Good morning. I'm Jim Brainard, 
Chief Information Officer for the City of Los Angeles, 
Department of Water and Power. 

I don't think that there's much more that I can 
say, only that we very strongly support the nomination of Mr. 



23 

Cortez . 

Thank you. 

MR. TALAMONTEZ: Good morning. I'm Roger 
Talamontez, President and CEO of the San Diego Data Processing 
Corporation. We represent the City of San Diego. 

We have direct experience with Mr. Cortez in 
government-to-government interface relationships. We heartily 
endorse and implore you to appoint this man as the Chief 
Information Officer of the State of California. 

MR. FREEDMAN: Thank you so much for allowing us 
to appear. My name is John Freedman, Council Member from the 
City of Redlands. 

I just want to report to you that Elias Cortez 
was the leader of outreach from the county to the 24 cities of 
San Bernardino County. We really appreciated that. 

He ' s brought lower cost and better service to 
some of the cities that have worked closely with him, and we 
strongly support his endorsement. 

Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Any witnesses in opposition? 
Hearing none, call the roll. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Baca Aye. Senator Hughes. 
Senator Knight. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Knight Aye. Senator Burton. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Aye. 



24 



1 SECRETARY WEBB: Burton Aye. Four to zero, 

2 CHAIRMAN BURTON: Leave the roll open for 

3 Senator Hughes. 

4 Congratulations. 

5 [Thereafter, SENATOR HUGHES 

6 added her Aye vote for the 

7 confirmation, making the final 

8 vote 5-0 for confirmation. ] 

9 [Thereupon this portion of the 

10 Senate Rules Committee hearing was 

11 terminated at approximately 10:12 A.M.] 

12 — ooOoo — 
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CERTIFICATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER 

1, EVELYN J. MIZAK, a Shorthand Reporter of the State 
of California, do hereby certify: 

That I am a disinterested person herein; that the 
foregoing transcript of the Senate Rules Committee hearing was 
reported verbatim in shorthand by me, Evelyn J. Mizak, and 
thereafter transcribed into typewriting. 

I further certify that I am not of counsel or 
attorney for any of the parties to said hearing, nor in any way 
interested in the outcome of said hearing. 

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this 

, 1999. 



=>^^ '^ day of uJ^yy^' 



u^ 




jYWJ. 
Shorthand Reporter 



371 -R 

Additional copies of this publication may be purchased for $3.00 per copy 
(includes shipping and handling) plus current California sales tax. 

Senate Publications 

1 020 N Street, Room B-53 

Sacramento, CA 95814 

(916)327-2155 

Make checks payable to SENATE RULES COMMITTEE. 
Please include Stock Number 371 -R when ordering. 



L Soo 
pit 



^HEARING 

SENATE RULES COMMITTEE 

STATE OF CALIFORNIA 




DOCUMENTS DEPT. 

m ] 4 1999 

SAN FRANCISCO 
PUBLIC LIBRARY 



STATE CAPITOL 

ROOM 113 

SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA 

WEDNESDAY, MAY 12, 1999 
9:35 A.M. 



372-R 



SENATE RULES COMMITTEE 
STATE OF CALIFORNIA 



HEARING 



STATE CAPITOL 

ROOM 113 

SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA 



WEDNESDAY, MAY 12, 1999 
9:35 A.M. 



Reported by; 



Evelyn J. Mizak 
Shorthand Reporter 



11 



APPEARANCES 

MEMBERS PRESENT 

SENATOR JOHN BURTON, Chair 

SENATOR JOHN LEWIS, Vice Chair 

SENATOR JOE BACA 

SENATOR TERESA HUGHES 

SENATOR WILLIAM KNIGHT 

STAFF PRESENT 

GREG SCHMIDT, Executive Officer 

PAT WEBB, Committee Secretary 

NETTIE SABELHAUS, Consultant on Governor's Appointments 

WADE TEASDALE, Consultant to SENATOR LEWIS 

FELICE TANENBAUM, Consultant to SENATOR HUGHES 

DAVID OROSCO, Consultant to SENATOR KNIGHT 

MANNY HERNANDEZ, Consultant to SENATOR BACA 

ALSO PRESENT 

JAMES W. KELLOGG, Member 

California Transportation Commission 

ART CARTER 

California Pipe Trades Council 

State Association of Electrical Workers 

Western States Council of Sheet Metal Workers 

BILL CAMP 

California Labor Federation 

CHUCK CENTER 

California State Council of Laborers 

RON BARROW 

Electrical Contractors 
Plumbing Contractors 
Sheet Metal Contractors 



Ill 



BRITTON McFETRIDGE 

State Building and Construction Trades Council 

DAVE ACKERMAN 

Associated General Contractors 

DAN CURT IN 

California State Council of Carpenters 



IV 

INDEX 

Page 
Proceedings 1 

Governor ' s Appointees : 

JAMES W. KELLOG, Member 

California Transportation Coimnission 1 

Background and Experience 1 

Questions by CHAIRMAN BURTON re: 

Proposals to Get New Monies to Meet 

Predicted Shortfall 3 

Questions by SENATOR LEWIS re: 

Qualifications for Appointment to 

Transportation Commission 4 

Opinion on HOV Lanes 5 

Motion to Confirm 5 

Questions by SENATOR HUGHES re: 

Proposals to Relieve Congestion 

Caused by HOV Lanes 6 

Questions by SENATOR BACA re: 

Problems of Suburban Sprawl 8 

Witnesses in Support: 

ART CARTER 

California Pipe Trades Council 

State Association of Electrical Workers 

Western States Council of Sheet Metal Workers 9 

BILL CAMP 

California Labor Federation 9 



CHUCK CENTER 

California State Council of Laborers 9 

RON BARROW 

Electrical Contractors 

Plumbing Contractors 

Sheet Metal Contractors 9 

BRITTON McFETRIDGE 

State Building and Construction Trades 

Council of California 9 

DAVE ACKERMAN 

Associated General Contractors 9 

DANNY CURT IN 

California State Council of Carpenters 10 

Committee Action 10 

Termination of Proceedings 10 

Certificate of Reporter 11 



P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 
— ooOoo — 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: First, the Governor's appointee 
for the Member of the California Transportation Commission, Jim 
Kellogg. 

Welcome, sir. 

MR. KELLOGG: Thank you. Senator. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Just tell us how great you are. 
[ Laughter . ] 

SENATOR BACA: Mr. Chair, some of us already know 
that . 

MR. KELLOGG: It took three days for me to tell 
Senator Baca when we were together how great I was. Somebody 
when I came said no long, flowery speeches. 

My name is Jim Kellogg. My background is that I 
was born and raised in California. I was born in Richmond, 
California and have lived in the Bay Area all my life. 

I came up through the ranks of organized labor in 
the United Association, which is the plumbing and pipe fitting 
industry. I've got 35 years in that industry as of now. 

I started out following in my father and my two 
uncles' footsteps in serving an apprenticeship, and worked my 
way up through the ranks, and been in full-time paid office in 
that industry since 197 6. 

I've got a lot of experience working with local 
politicians, and city councils, and Boards of Supervisors, and 
labor councils, and industry people. And I feel like I'm more 
than qualified to fill one of the seats on the Transportation 



Commission because of those experiences. We interface with the 
heavy and highway construction people in our industry as well. 

My experience in bringing industry and 
contractors and laborers to the table and working together is — 
I've got a long history. 

I've been involved in local community activities 
as far as being — participating with Council and Supervisors, 
and their committees, and law enforcement committees, and labor 
council committees as well. 

And I believe that growing up in this state, I've 
been able to watch transportation grow as well. When I was 
young in the Bay Area, the main highway from Oakland to 
Sacramento was San Pablo Avenue. The main road from west county 
to east county was Franklin County Road. And I've watched 
Highway 80 come into place. Highway 680 come into place, bridges 
and tunnels, and the likes, and have experienced traveling them 
myself, and feel that I have something to add. 

I've spent my entire adult life representing 
working people and trying to help people. I believe that this 
is an opportunity for me to have some impact on helping all the 
citizens in the State of California. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Lewis. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Start with someone else. I'll 
defer for a second. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: There was a report recently 
released that showed that, I think, roughly we're about 26 
billion dollars short to get even where we should be today, and 
over the next ten years, I think, it's 116 billion. A lot of 



money. 

There have been proposals. I've got a general 
obligation bond proposal that's quite large. There's proposals 
to take moneys basically out of the General Fund from the sales 
tax on gasoline. There's some thought of taking some of that 
money putting it into a revenue bond source. 

If you had a chance to discuss with any of your 
fellow Commissioners, like we need a lot more new money, what is 
really the best way to get it? Knowing that you're the ones 
that are really going to vote on it. But the funding thing, I 
know you're newly appointed. 

MR. KELLOGG: Senator, first of all, I was remiss 
in not thanking the Rules Committee for giving me this 
opportunity. I would like to request before it's over with that 
I have your support. 

But I have had discussions with the rest of the 
Commission and Commission staff about the report, and through 
the process of the report. And it was a report that was 
requested and done in short order. And I think they did a 
fantastic job on this report. 

We've talked about 23 billion of that is in 
rehab, and fixing what's already out there. That's a big 
portion. But we realize that 116 billion dollars over the next 
ten years is not going to be an easy task. I believe it's going 
to be so difficult that it's going to take the Legislature and 
the Governor, working together, to accomplish this. It's going 
to take a combination of bonds issues, and probably gasoline 
taxes, and user fees, and all of that together in order is to 



come up with what's going to be needed to accomplish that 
mission. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Lewis. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Mr. Kellogg, I'm sorry I missed 
part of your presentation. Maybe you answered this already. 

Looking over your resume, you've got a long 
history, involvement in plumbing and the pipe fitting industry. 
But at least on the resume that I've seen, nothing really 
related to transportation. 

What kind of transportation background do you 
have that makes you qualified for this appointment? 

MR. KELLOGG: Well, in our industry, we work 
hand- in-hand with the same labor unions and contractors that 
work in the heavy and highway industry. And I've played a major 
role in the local area where I'm from at the building trades 
level, the City Council and County Supervisors level in keeping 
harmony and creating a positive atmosphere within that type of 
work. 

We interface with them in the sense that any time 
that there's a highway or a road change, there's usually 
underground pipe lines involved. We are the people that work 
hand-in-hand and shoulder-to-shoulder with them in replacing the 
piping systems that have to be — or removing them, or whatever 
is necessary. So, we interface in that industry quite a bit. 

SENATOR LEWIS: I wanted to ask you a little bit 
about your feelings regarding HOV lanes. In the CTC report, 
they identified new car pool lanes, including 30 miles of 1-5 
north of downtown L.A. 



Do you think it ' s wise to continue to construct 
additional HOV lanes until we've studied the effectiveness of 
the existing ones we have? 

MR. KELLOGG: Well, I have kind of a personal 
feeling about HOV lanes. I've always felt that I didn't care 
too much for HOV lanes. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Move the nomination. 
[ Laughter . ] 

MR. KELLOGG: I'm serious. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: So am I . If I've got three 
people they're great. If I'm by myself, they suck. 

MR. KELLOGG: I think that just driving on our 
highways today, you can see that there's more people by 
themselves than there are that utilize those lanes. I think if 
we can move them over into those lanes, it would help all of us 

That's my own opinion. 

SENATOR BACA: Basically, we are all taxpayers 
and not allowed to use that lane. 

MR. KELLOGG: There's several things I think can 
be done to streamline the legislative process and the process 
for making things happen guicker. I think that's one of the 
biggest things that we all have to, the Commission and the 
Legislature and the administration, have to address that has 
caused the problems that we have today. 

We need to streamline the bureaucracy and the 
process, and there's ways of doing that. I think that when we 
have an environmental EIR process like we have in the State of 
California, that's far above in the highway industry which you 



have in the federal EIR, yet when you have federal money on a 
state highway, you have to go through both those processes, that 
we ought to be able to work out some kind of an agreement with 
the federal government to eliminate that second deal and speed 
up the process in those ways. 

I think there's ways that we can use our friends 
who are environmentalists to speed up the existing environmental 
process, the EIR process. I believe that that can be done with 
everybody working together. 

All those things going hand-in-hand are going to 
help to speed up the process. 

And I think that if we don't do that, then shame 
on us, because when we're all done and walk away from the job we 
have today, I would hope that supporting the Governor and the 
Legislature that we'll be able to look at citizens of the State 
of California and see that their traveling is easier and better 
for them. 

SENATOR LEWIS: I move the nomination. 

SENATOR BACA: Second. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Senator Hughes. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Since you've only been there a 
couple of months, and you share the same feelings as a lot of 
people on the Committee, what would you propose, or do you 
propose to do in the meantime to help relieve the mess, 
congestion, and confusion of the Diamond Lanes? In some 
instances, they're only the operative certain hours, and the 
signs are small, and people have problems seeing them. Some 
lanes it's two; some lanes it's three. 



What do you see as a band-aid approach until the 
Commission can really get their act together and do something 
very definitive about changing this whole process? Do you have 
a plan? Or, since you've been there, have you heard any plans 
that we might look forward to? 

MR. KELLOGG: I have to be honest, we haven't 
really addressed that issue. 

SENATOR HUGHES: When are you going to bring it 
up? 

MR. KELLOGG: Immediately. 

SENATOR HUGHES: I like that. 

MR. KELLOGG: I'm going to contact staff on my 
way out the door and request a special meeting. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Second the nomination. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Do you want to introduce your 
family and friends? 

MR. KELLOGG: I'd be glad. I'd like to introduce 
my wife, Lynn. That's my entire family today. The rest of my 
family's outside of California, but she's the backbone of the 
family that sits on the Transportation Commission. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: What I'd like to have, so they 
don't screw things up, is have the witnesses just announce their 
name and the fact that they're in support. We don't want them 
raising issues that may cause trouble. 

I'm looking at Art Carter right now. 

Senator Baca had a question or comment. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 

Suburban sprawl contributes to air pollution and 



8 

the loss of tax revenues to urban cities. Suburban sprawl 
reduces the amount of farm land and open space in California. 

Can you seriously consider providing or taking 
steps to help in this area, especially as it pertains to cities 
such as San Bernardino and other areas? 

MR. KELLOGG: Senator, I missed the very first 
part. 

SENATOR BACA: Suburban sprawl contributes to air 
pollution and loss of tax revenue to urban cities, medium cities 
such as San Bernardino. 

Can you have serious consideration as the 
California Transportation Commission to take steps to prevent 
urban sprawl? 

MR. KELLOGG: I believe so, yes. I think that 
the way SB 45 is structured, that how this money is distributed 
is set up through population and highway miles. And it kind of 
evens out the urban counties' ability. 

But I agree with you 100 percent. I think that 
you and I, on our trip to Mexico, experienced what can happen if 
we don't take care of transportation. I have never seen such a 
disaster in my life as the transportation in Mexico City. 

SENATOR BACA: Thank you. That's why I'm 
concerned with a lot of the urban cities that are being 
affected. Not some of the larger cities, but the urban 
communities. I'm glad you're willing to take steps in that 
direction. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Witnesses in support. Name, 
organization, and support. 



9 

MR. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, did you say that 
witnesses are limited to fifteen minutes. 

[Laughter. ] 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: I think you're disqualified. 
You were on the man's payroll. 

[ Laughter . ] 

MR. CARTER: Art Carter, representing the 
California Pipe Trades Council, the State Association of 
Electrical Workers, and the Western States Council of Sheet 
Metal Workers, in strong support of Mr. Kellogg. 

MR. CAMP: Mr. Chairman, Bill Camp, representing 
the California Labor Federation. Tom Rankin would have been 
here; he's obligated otherwise, and send his regrets. 

We support this man 100 percent. 

MR. CENTER: Chuck Center with the California 
State Council of Laborers in strong support of Mr. Kellogg. 

MR. BARROW: Mr. Chairman, Members of the 
Committee, my name is Ron Barrow. I'm representing Electrical 
Contractors, Plumbing Contractors, Sheet Metal Contractors. 

We are proud to support Mr. Kellogg in his 
nomination. Thank you. 

MR. McFETRIDGE: Jerry McFetridge, State Building 
and Construction Trades Council of California. We represent 
over 100,000 construction workers in the state, and we are 
strongly in support of Mr. Kellogg. 

MR. ACKERMAN: Mr. Chairman and Members, Dave 
Ackerman, representing the Associated General Contractors. 

We're in strong support of Mr. Kellogg 's 



10 

nomination and urge your confirmation. Thank you. 

MR. CURTIN: Mr. Chairman And Members, Danny 
Curtin, California State Council of Carpenters. 

I'd just like to say that Mr. Kellogg has a 
tremendous capability and history of resolving some very, very 
difficult problems within the trades, and I should know because 
I ' ve a part of those problems in some cases , and I encourage 
your support for him. 

Thank you. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Any opposition? 

It was moved by Senator Lewis. Call the roll. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Senator Baca. 

SENATOR BACA: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Baca Aye. Senator Hughes. 

SENATOR HUGHES: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Hughes Aye. Senator Knight. 

SENATOR KNIGHT: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Knight Aye. Senator Lewis. 

SENATOR LEWIS: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Lewis Aye. Senator Burton. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Aye. 

SECRETARY WEBB: Burton Aye. Five to zero. 

CHAIRMAN BURTON: Congratulation, Jim. 

[Thereupon this portion of the 

Senate Rules Committee hearing was 

terminated at approximately 9:53 A.M.] 
— ooOoo — 



11 

CERTIFICATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER 

1, EVELYN J. MIZAK, a Shorthand Reporter of the State 
of California, do hereby certify: 

That I am a disinterested person herein; that the 
foregoing transcript of the Senate Rules Committee hearing was 
reported verbatim in shorthand by me, Evelyn J. Mizak, and 
thereafter transcribed into typewriting. 

I further certify that I am not of counsel or 
attorney for any of the parties to said hearing, nor in any way 
interested in the outcome of said hearing. 

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this 
/^ day of "^/VyUy , 1999. 





)kc^ 



SVELYN J/. MIgAK 
Shorthand Reporter 



372-R 

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